Meta talk:Babylon/Archives/2021

Guidelines for translation admins

Hi!

I just drafted Meta:Internationalization guidelines, mainly to document the switch trick for templates, but also to list guidelines which are commonly used, but which were not formally written. Obviously, they can be discussed as they, for now, only represent my point of view (even if they are based on what is usually done on Meta-Wiki). Feel free to improve and complete it!

PS: I know they will soon become obsolete because of template transclusion change and possible new syntax to make Translate work with Parsoid. --Pols12 (talk) 15:01, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Add translatable page request

Hello everyone, when I was browsing the meta pages recently, I found that Small_Wiki_Monitoring_Team/IRC and Global_sysops/Requests need to be translated, but these pages do not seem to be marked, so I propose to mark them.

The reasons are as follows:

1. Page 1 is the use of the robot tutorial, it is necessary to translate.
2. Page 2 is a global request page, and similar pages have translation, so I think it is necessary to translate.

Sincerely,

海の向こうは敵だ！ 11:15, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

@BureibuNeko: Page 2 is already translatable. Requests pages are not directly translated, as the requests themselves should not be translated, but the header is placed on a different, translatable, page, in this case Global sysops/Requests/header. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 12:52, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Doing... I am working on page 1. Pols12 (talk) 15:54, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Done Pols12 (talk) 16:58, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

This section was archived on a request by: ZabeMath (talk) 23:19, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Nulledit

@Eihel: What was this edit good for? It inserted a period in a list where no other list item have it, and invalidated all translations of that translation unit, forcing translators in all 62 languages to manually check what changed. This seems counterproductive to me. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 13:34, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Hello Tacsipacsi, In fact, I was wrong and I preferred to stop there, sorry. I checked the change of an IP on Meta:Babylon/lv, but it was already removed by CptViraj. On the other hand, the modification of CptViraj was not quite good (he removed too much). I wanted to put things back in order, but, strangely enough, I didn't have the right to make any changes ?! I cannot explain why. If you can fix all of these issues, that would be welcome. Cordially. —Eihel (talk) 19:03, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

@Eihel: I see. Unfortunately there’s no way to completely revert these changes (this is one of Translate’s biggest weaknesses), the best thing you can do is to open the affected translation unit for editing in the full-page wikitext editor and prefix it with !!FUZZY!!. Making all translations fuzzy (and not even of the affected translation unit…) is certainly not a solution. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 00:00, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Change to tvar syntax

In order to make the Translate extension work better with Parsoid and VisualEditor, we propose to change the syntax to look more like HTML. Please see this Phabricator task for details and leave your thoughts if you have any. --Nikerabbit (talk) 12:35, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Changes to transclusion behavior of translatable templates

We made it simpler to use translatable templates. Previously the regular template transclusion syntax, i.e. {{TranslatableTemplate}}, would cause translate tags to appear verbatim on the including page. The behavior will change so that now translatable templates can be included using the regular template transclusion syntax. The code will pick a language version of a template that matches the content language of the including page, or if that is not available, fall back to the source language version of the template.

This change is going to be included in the 1.36.0-wmf.32 branch, which is expected to be deployed during this week.

For now, the translatable templates need to opt-in to this new behavior. This is done by (re-)marking the page for translation and choosing the language aware transclusion behavior. To not break any templates that rely on the old behavior, this is off by default for currently marked pages, but enabled by default whenever a page is (re-)marked for translation. This means that if a template is re-marked for translation and depends on the old behavior, the language aware transclusion must be explicitly disabled!

More details are in the Phabricator task for this feature.

Nikerabbit (talk) 15:29, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

@Nikerabbit: When re-marking a page for translation, the old behavior should be the default. This is a nice feature in an idealistic world, but it breaks far too often in reality that it could be a good default. In addition to creative solutions like making translation depend on UI language instead of page language, there’s also a bunch of legacy (non-Extension:Translate, manual) translations, where the page language is simply not set and thus this new system returns the English version while {{TNT}} built in the template returns the correct translation. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 14:28, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Categorize pages which should not have translation-aware transclusion enabled

Hello Translation Admins!

For most of pages marked for translation, we should enable translation-aware transclusion. However, some rare templates should not have this feature enabled: they use a custom system to determine in which language they should be displayed. These systems can use a given uselang parameter or {{int:lang}} magic word.

• I propose to add them a maintenance category to easier identify them (and avoid any translation admin mark them with translation-aware transclusion enabled).
• @Tacsipacsi proposed to insert a comment in the template code where the hack is used to ensure nobody remove it.

What do you think about these ideas? What category name can we use to tag concerned pages? -- Pols12 (talk) 17:04, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

I proposed to have a comment instead of the category, not in addition to it. I much hope that the number of templates tagged with it will be pretty low, and as other templates get translation-aware transclusion enabled, the no transclusion support notices on Special:PageTranslation will perfectly help keeping track of them. In the meantime, an insource: search can be used to tell not upgraded pages and pages kept on purpose apart. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 19:09, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

• Either of these options sound good to me, but I agree it is easy to overlook/not-notice categories so an alternative to that might be best. (I've often been confused about when I should/shouldn't enable this feature. Thanks for helping clarify it all!) Quiddity (talk) 19:06, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

FuzzyBot moves

Tracked in Phabricator:
Task T41023

User talk:FuzzyBot redirects here, so is this where you comment on FuzzyBot issues? Some time ago, FuzzyBot moved a number of pages. For example, Legal/URAA Statement was moved to Wikimedia Foundation Legal department/URAA Statement. However, the talk page was not moved but remains at Talk:Legal/URAA Statement. There are other cases where talk pages were not moved, for example Wikimedia Foundation Legal department/Wikimedia Server Location and Free Knowledge versus Talk:Legal/Wikimedia Server Location and Free Knowledge. In this second case, someone has created a second talk page under the new title. Could someone locate all affected talk pages and sort out this mess? --Stefan2 (talk) 14:57, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

I discover thanks to you that talk pages are never moved behind translatable pages. Since this is not really a bug, this is not logged (while other similar moving issues are actually logged.) -- Pols12 (talk) 21:15, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

• It seems that the bot moved all the subpages (but not the talk pages belonging to the subpages) when User:Yair rand moved Legal to Wikimedia Foundation Legal department. Someone needs to find all talk pages which weren't moved and move them to the right place. I think it's also inappropriate that the subpages to Legal were moved without leaving a redirect as people often have linked to those subpages, often from other projects such as Commons. --Stefan2 (talk) 08:55, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

  Yes, this is expected behavior: Translate extension (that’s not really a bot) allows to move subpages (the user can choose whether to move them), but not talk pages. This feature request has been tracked as already mentioned T41023 task. -- Pols12 (talk) 18:39, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

  The feature request is only about not messing up future page moves but I'm talking about fixing previous page moves. --Stefan2 (talk) 19:18, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Customization of Special:PageTranslation intro

MediaWiki:Tpt-showpage-intro has been customized here to include a notice about translations getting lost if not marked as "do not invalidate". That is no longer true. Translations are shown as outdated in the translation interface, and are shown on translation pages too, but marked with a class that indicates they may be out of date. I propose the local customization to be removed. --Nikerabbit (talk) 08:40, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

 Support Good catch. Actually, I have never seen this custom intro because it has not been localized and my interface is in French. -- Pols12 (talk) 16:46, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Deleted. Sgd. —Hasley 22:56, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

This section was archived on a request by: Ameisenigel (talk) 09:27, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

ESEAP Hub

Hi, could any translate admin mark ESEAP Hub and its subpages for translation? Thanks! RamzyM (talk) 10:04, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Done -- Pols12 (talk) 20:32, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

This section was archived on a request by: Ameisenigel (talk) 09:28, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Need help

I wanted to translate Dehalvi Wikimedia User Group into Urdu language, and tried Dehalvi Wikimedia User Group/ur. I don't know how it works here. I'd really appreciate any kind of help. Thanks. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 04:38, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

The page needs to be marked for translation first. I’m working on it. -- Pols12 (talk) 19:11, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Done, you can safely translate it. Note I have imported your translations for the infobox, but you should review them because there may be copy-paste mistakes. -- Pols12 (talk) 19:57, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

This section was archived on a request by: Ameisenigel (talk) 09:28, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Mark for translation

Please include these two changes for translation. [1][2] Thanks. Vis M (talk) 20:16, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@Vis M: Done --Ameisenigel (talk) 14:53, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

This section was archived on a request by: Ameisenigel (talk) 14:53, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Why is there a /en translation?

User:FuzzyBot will automatically create /en subpages, but since source pages are already in English, the /en subpages become useless. —— Eric Liu_（Talk） 07:07, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

In /en subpages, all translate tags are removed. This is useful to transclude pages (e.g. templates). This is a technical requirement, you don’t need to deal with it. -- Pols12 (talk) 18:18, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanation. —— Eric Liu_（Talk） 07:09, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

This section was archived on a request by: Ameisenigel (talk) 14:52, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Help with translation: WPWP2021

Wikipedia Pages Wanting Photos 2021 starts on July 01 to August 31, 2021. Before the campaign starts, I would like to request you to please help with translation. Here is the direct link:

1. Direct translation link of CentralNotice banner
2. Direct translation link of WPWP main page

Let us know if you have any questions, comments or concerns. We really appreciate your feedback and help.

If I can help you with anything, feel free to ask!

Kind regards,
Tulsi
Communication Manager, WPWP
— Tulsi Bhagat ^{[ contribs | talk ]} 06:38, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Machine translation

Some Wikipedias have an explicit policy that an unedited machine translation is worse than nothing, for example English and French. Is there such a policy for translations on the Meta wiki?

It generally makes sense, but if it's not written explicitly, it probably should be. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:23, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

There's no such policy on Meta, but I'd support one if proposed. Nonsense can be speedy deleted under WM:CSD#G1; but it's meant to deal with obvious vandalism or test edits. Maybe a new criterion could be added to our Deletion Policy to cover the kind of unedited/nonsense machine translations you mention. Regards, —MarcoAurelio (talk) 17:25, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

No opposition as for me, however I don’t think writing this rule may reduce machine-translation amount. -- Pols12 (talk) 20:09, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Regarding translating content to Chinese

In most if not all Chinese Wikimedia projects, the content conversion system is adapted for converting content between different variants and localizations of the Chinese language due to the vast differences between the use of terms in different Chinese societies, many of which might not even be understood or have completely different meanings when used in other Chinese variants.

• zh-hant: Traditional Chinese
  • zh-tw: Trad Chinese (Taiwan)
  • zh-hk: Trad Chinese (Hong Kong)
  • zh-mo: Trad Chinese (Macao)
• zh-hans: Simplified Chinese
  • zh-cn: Simp Chinese (mainland China)
  • zh-sg: Simp Chinese (Singapore)
  • zh-my: Simp Chinese (Malaysia)

To adapt with the differences and avoid arguments on the use of terms, conversion tags -{}-, {{NoteTA}} and Module:CGroup are used for converting content ({{NoteTA}} is used for conversion of the same term used extensively across an article, while Module:CGroup is incorporated in {{NoteTA}} with lists of variant conversion in different areas).

Unlike on TranslateWiki where we can translate into individual variants of Chinese, translating to variants of Chinese is disabled on Meta-Wiki (the interface redirects translators to translating to zh), such that us Chinese users have to use the same methods on translating content to Chinese (and in different variants). While conversion tags -{}- are still usable, but it is always inconvenient to use this means extensively, while it is even more inconvenient to use extensive conversion methods, i.e. {{NoteTA}}, when translating content to Chinese; we technically have to place it inside a content conversion tag (and by doing so, it has to be placed somewhere in a translated content box in the user interface.

I would like to ask if there could be any means to solve this inconvenience/problem, such as extensions to the translation UI for NoteTA incorporation.

Thanks and regards, Luciferian • Talk 08:12, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

I have not found related task on Phabricator, but I’m not able to create it. Let’s ping @Nlaxstrom-WMF who could probably help. --Pols12 (talk) 13:44, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

@LuciferianThomas: It is certainly possible, for example by the code responsible for “insertables” (translation variables, PLURALs etc. appearing at the bottom of the translation window) firing a hook so that a JavaScript gadget can add these buttons, or adding a MediaWiki namespace message that configures the PHP code to add these insertables on its own. (The first one is more flexible, since it easily allows per-user configuration, adding the buttons based on arbitrary conditions etc., while the second probably makes configuration easier and loading faster.) Either case, since we’re talking about a template, it’ll need local configuration, so if it’s set up on Meta, it won’t automatically become available on Commons or mediawiki.org. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 15:31, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I think MediaWiki.org and Commons needs the same configuration, but that's for themselves to set up or fork later. Luciferian • Talk 15:47, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

@LuciferianThomas: You might want to consult @Liangent: for why on Meta/Wikidata/MW.org/Commons... we only enable "zh" for localizations. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:55, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Not the main point. Luciferian • Talk 08:19, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

@LuciferianThomas: It is, because Liangent said these on MediaWiki.org: mw:User_talk:Cwlin0416#Re: Can i request to add language Traditional Chinese (zh-hant)?. You may also ask @Xiplus, Artoria2e5, and Sunny00217: for help advices. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:05, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Not the main point. This is to ask for a special hook for adding conversion tags (esp. {{NoteTA}}) for translating to "zh". Yo seem to have completely misunderstood the request. Luciferian • Talk 02:03, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

WikiProject Pt-Br

I would like to announce the creation of the WikiProject Pt-Br, aiming to help with translations of Meta pages into pt-br, as well as personnel training, translation requests and other discussions on the subject. I am currently training the editors Juan90264 and Liquet and I thank Pols12 for training me. Best regards, --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 11:08, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Help with translation of a single sentence

Hello friends,

I hope you are doing well and keeping safe.

Please help with translating this single sentence.

See the translation link below:

https://w.wiki/3Zzp

Thank you for your help

Best regards. T Cells^Talk 14:45, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Unite Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese into Portuguese

Related discussion have been opened in wiki.pt: pt:Wikipédia:Esplanada/geral/Unificação do Português e do Português do Brasil no Meta (9mai2021)

Tracked in Phabricator:
Task T55789

• Given that: 1) despite being linguistic variants, except for specific cases (usually solved by the context), both variants are understood by all Portuguese speakers; 2) there are a huge number of pages not translated into Portuguese, and the difference in variants doubles the work needed (see: Universal Code of Conduct); 3) there is a valid orthographic agreement, which homogenizes orthographic and grammatical issues (see: en:Portuguese Language Orthographic Agreement of 1990);
• I suggest that: both be unified into just Portuguese, exactly as it is on the pt.wiki.
• As on the pt.wiki, controversies would be resolved like this: the variant used in the creation of the page should be kept and although one can write or translate in another variant (as few are able to write in both variants) it is allowed to correct later additions to the page creation variant. --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 11:40, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

 Oppose Strongly disagree. There are vast differences in vocabulary and grammar. Some are indeed small, but others are not. Despite a high level of mutual mutual intelligibility, a large number of everyday terms is virtually unknown to speakers of the other variant. Coupled with differences in grammar, this make reading unnecessarily harder. The 1990 agreement has only affected a very small fraction of words. Differences are way more vast than differences between british and american english, so there's no point in using this as a comparison.

With 5x more users and 15x more population than the other portuguese-speaking contries combined, it's fairly obvious to predict that in a short time changes from standart portuguese to brazilian portuguese will be so overwhelming that they will be hard to monitor or undo, leading to the extinction of the former. This is already happening in pt.wiki. When efforts are being made all around the world to preserve local languages and variants (Wikimedia projects included), I find appalling such constant and systematic efforts to 'morph' everything in brazilian portuguese.

The OP problem can be easily fixed: the system can make the other variant the second default language, instead of english. This is what happens in Wikidata. JMagalhães (talk) 16:24, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

 Support I agree with this solution, solve my problem.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 17:28, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Jdforrester (WMF) Could you please check the technical feasibility of this proposed modification? Personally I understand that the technical decision comes after the political one, but there are those who defend the opposite.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 14:20, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@Felipe da Fonseca, yes, it's theoretically possible for us to re-purpose pt to be international Portuguese, with pt-pt and pt-br used for local variation where appropriate (that's closer to international standards of language codes, and so probably a not-bad direction of travel generally). However, I'm just one engineer; my colleagues in the mw:Language Engineering team would be much better-placed to give advice. Jdforrester (WMF) (talk) 22:47, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Jdforrester (WMF) thank you very much for your answer. I'm not sure if we are understanding each other... this is an eminently technical issue, I'll try to be clearer. JMagalhães' proposal, with which I agree and we will probably reach a consensus is: if I choose my official system language as Portuguese, the Brazilian Portuguese variant will become the second default and English will become only the third -- i.e. if there is no page in the Portuguese variant, before opening the page in English, it would open the page in Brazilian Portuguese -- the opposite would also be the case: if my system is configured with Brazilian Portuguese and there is no page in this variant, then it would first open Portuguese and only then, if there is no page in this variant too, it would open English. Is that technically possible? --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 23:22, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@Felipe da Fonseca Yes, pt-pt and pt-br could both fall back to pt before en (i.e. pt-pt > pt > en and pt-br > pt > en), or even pt could fall back to pt-pt and then pt-br before en (pt > pt-pt > pt-br > en) theoretically, but there can't be loops (i.e. pt-br can't fall back to pt if pt falls back to pt-br). However, as I said, this is something you should ask the Language team about, as it may conflict with things of which I'm not aware. Jdforrester (WMF) (talk) 00:42, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Jdforrester (WMF) thanks. Actually what we need is: ( pt-pt > pt-br > en) and (pt-br > pt-pt > en), so... its looks like we have a loop. The other alternatives were not what we were thinking of, but I will take this up for discussion, if the difference in the number of translated pages of each variant is too big, we might just accept one of the options. Could you ping here or refer me to someone from the "Language Team", please?--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 09:39, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

 Support If the unification is based on the en:Portuguese Language Orthographic Agreement of 1990, I agree with the proposal, as it will avoid previous variants in the unified Portuguese language for all Portuguese-speaking countries. If this is not possible, unfortunately, there would be no way to approve the unification, not least in order to not displease those who prefer the 1945 variants. WikiFer ^msg 21:52, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

 Support I agree with the entirety of Felipe da Fonseca's arguments, but as pointed out, the second default language solution proposed by JMagalhães suits a consensus well. Even though it's highly unlike any degree of unintelligibility between the linguistic variants, I believe we must take into consideration the Portuguese concern regarding Brazilian dominance, furthermore, when we consider the African and Asian speakers of the language - the true minorities on the matter. I understand WikiFer's argument on the en:Portuguese Language Orthographic Agreement of 1990 previous variants issue, but looking ahead from it, another approach is needed: (1) when we consider the language as a living thing, and not tamed by formal conventions; (2) when we find ourselves dealing with a collaborative encyclopedia being build by radically different people. Tolerance to diversity over formalized unity. Kind regards to all, CalliandraDysantha (talk) 23:00, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

The following two questions were raised in the pt.wiki: 1) should the variant name "Português" be changed to "Português Europeu" (European Portuguese)? 2) adopting the proposal to place one variant as the automatic second option to the other, the question remains: when a page has been poorly translated, say less than 30%, for a few months now, should the page be deleted for the system to pull the other variant?--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 10:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

@Felipe da Fonseca I'm fine with renaming the variant, but don't think it makes a lot of difference. Those ideal scenarios seem like new features to this system that are unlikely to be implemented in the short or medium term. I do not see the point of discussing this in a technical vacuum. Have you discussed this with any mediawiki/extension developer? Is there anyone willing to develop this? Chico Venancio (talk) 23:11, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Chicocvenancio I'm sorry, but I really don't understand you - which vacuum? Which proposal are you referring to? Mine or from JMagalhães? I have changed for some time now and accepted JMagalhães'proposal as superior. So, the consensus is consolidating in his proposal. In any case, political and technical decisions are diverse, if there are no technical staff to implement the change, that is a completely different problem from the political one. --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 00:11, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Strong oppose per JMagalhães. The proposal solves no problem and takes away the possibility of having the translations into the 2 variants.--- Darwin ^Ahoy! 23:06, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

DarwIn It is not exactly correct what you say, there is a problem and the proposal does solve the problem. However, it brings another problem, which is the suppression of European Portuguese as alleged. In any case, the JMagalhães proposal solves the existing problem and does not create this other one. A consensus is therefore being consolidated on this proposal by JMagalhães.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 00:11, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

 Oppose While the main namespace is a place where duplication is costly, specially in terms of volunteer time, copying translations for docs have a trivial cost. We also need to have the best translation possible for several important documents in the movement (licenses, ToU, CoC, etc), disallowing Portuguese variants will not help. Chico Venancio (talk) 23:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Chicocvenancio Could you give your opinion about JMagalhães'proposal? As I said above, a consensus can be established on his proposal.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 13:01, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Strong oppose My opinion is it is useless to discuss without knowing if it is possible. Once technical feasibility has been established we can discuss if it is desirable. Chico Venancio (talk) 13:25, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Complete inversion of values. --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 14:16, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

 Support as WikiFer says. Alex Pereira ^falaê 12:38, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - I think there might be some confusion here, regarding what exactly is being requested, and what already exists.

I.e. If I understand correctly, we do already have circular fallback for Pt ↔ Pt-br at a basic level for entire pages (per mw:Manual:Language#Fallback_languages - see bottom-right corner of that image), and that system does work properly if an entire page is only translated into a single variant - E.g. If I set my language to Pt, and visit Special:MyLanguage/Tech/News/2021/17 (which was only translated into Pt-br), then it will show me the Pt-br version.

The problem is when a page has been partially translated into both variants. E.g. at Special:MyLanguage/Universal Code of Conduct it will show me the Pt version because someone has translated the page-title (but nothing else).

What you are asking for, is a new way for the system to work.

E.g.1. Perhaps it could create a unique jigsaw page that takes existing content from either variant. So in the UCoC example, it would show me the title in Pt but all other translated content in Pt-br, and untranslated content in En. (That sounds like the ideal, but I would imagine it is technically very very complex, and perhaps not possible given the current technical backend infrastructure?).

E.g.2. Or perhaps it could work similar to the existing setup, but if a page only has 5% or less translated into one variant (e.g. Pt), the system will check the other variant (e.g. Pt-br), and if that variant has 10% or more translated, it will give that page to the user. [Using random numbers just as examples] (That might be more technically feasible, and be good enough to resolve most of the actual problems?)

If that overall description of the problem is accurate, then I suggest asking the mw:Language Engineering team what is technically possible, along those lines. Quiddity (talk) 16:46, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Quiddity thank you for the clarification. To me personally it seems that it is enough to implement the second alternative, also because it is technically easier (as you say and from what is intuible). I will ask at mw:Language Engineering team. --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 19:14, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Actually I think Quiddity’s second option is less feasible—Special:MyLanguage is a feature of core MediaWiki (source code), and has no notion about page translation and its progress (or even actual language codes—https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Template:Ll?uselang=doc happily redirects to {{ll}}’s documentation subpage, assuming that doc is a valid language code). Option 1, on the other hand, should happen entirely within the Translate extension, which does know what is translation, translation units, missing translation units, whether and how to mark up translation units that are not in the translation units (since last fall, untranslated bits are marked up with appropriate HTML to mark that they are in the source language), and so on. It surely needs some refactoring to deal with the fact that it should take more than two languages into account, and updating a translation can affect more than one page (if the Brazilian Portuguese translation of some translation unit is updated, and there’s no European Portuguese translation for that unit, both Portuguese pages should be updated), but I think it’s still more feasible. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 21:43, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I fully agree with Tacsipacsi. Felipe da Fonseca, you should probably open a Phabricator task with MediaWiki-extensions-Translate tag as a feature request with a title like “Use fallback language to complete partial translation pages” (or something like that).

The only severe issue I see is the performance cost because translation page building is already weighty. -- Pols12 (talk) 22:54, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I asked at mw:Language Engineering team.Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 00:42, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Actually the tasks already exists as “Translation pages display English even if there is translation available in close variant language.”. --Pols12 (talk) 12:26, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Strong oppose In my opinion it should not be united because there is a considerable difference between Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese --Eduardoaddad (talk) 14:35, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Neutral If there should have separate variants per country, we need to have a mechanism to convert between them, otherwise it's weird. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:03, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Der Fuzzy-Bot hat gerade was zerstört

Er hat mit dieser Änderung die übersetzte Seite Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees/de zerstört, wie auch immer er das geschafft hat. Wenn ich in das Übersetzungstool gehe, sieht alles übersetzt aus, wenn ich auf die Seite direkt gehe, ist alles auf Englisch, und rückgängig kann ich den Bot-Vandalismus auch nicht machen. Was ist da passiert und wie kann das revertiert werden? Grüße vom Sänger ♫^(Reden) 13:34, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Er scheint das für alle Übersetzungen der Seite getan zu haben, und ggf. auch noch weitere, wie geht ein Notaus des Bots? @DBarthel (WMF): Du fällst mir als e4rster ein. Grüße vom Sänger ♫^(Reden) 13:43, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Translated: The fuzzy bot just destroyed something

It destroyed the [Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees/de translated] Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees/de page with this change, however he managed to do it. When I go into the translation tool everything looks translated, when I go to the page directly everything is in English, and I can't undo the bot vandalism either. What happened there and how can this be reverted? Greetings from singer ♫(speeches) 13:34, 12 August 2021 (UTC).

He seems to have done this for all translations of the page, and possibly others, how does an emergency stop of the bot go? @DBarthel (WMF): you come to mind as first. Greetings from the singer ♫(speeches) 13:43, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi Sänger, ich denke nicht, dass das FuzzyBot war. Wir hatten heute morgen bereits was ähnliches bei der chinesischen Übersetzung beobachtet, ohne FuzzyBot und dachten, dass läge am Zeichensatz. Ist aber wohl doch was anderes. Wir sind dran und geben das weiter. Danke für die Meldung! DBarthel (WMF) (talk) 14:28, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

@Sänger: - läuft bereits: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T288683 DBarthel (WMF) (talk) 14:32, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Der Phab behauptet jetzt, das problem wäre gelöst, die Seite gibt es aber noch immer nicht auf Deutsch. Ich habe hier keinerlei Adminrechte, die für die Revertierung des Bot-Vandalismus augenscheinlich notwendig wären, wer erledigt das bitte? Gerade jetzt, bei den anstehenden Wahlen, finde ich es extrem unschön, wenn ausgerechnet die Seite über das Gremium, das gewählt werden soll, nur in einer unverständlichen Sprache vorhanden ist, nämlich dem überbewerteten Englisch. @DBarthel (WMF): mal wieder.

The Phab is proclaiming that everything's fine, but nothing is yet, the page ist still just in this strange foreign language only select people can read. As I have not admin rights, that are obviously necessary to revert the bot vandalism, who will take care of this? Especially with the elections coming nearer, it's very suboptimal to have the pages about the board, that should be elected, only in one, for most people unreadable but here unwarranted overused, language.

-- Grüße vom Sänger ♫^(Reden) 04:21, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Der Fuzzy-Bot hat es gerade selber wieder repariert, scheint also wer entsprechend programmiert zu haben. Dank dafür. Grüße vom Sänger ♫^(Reden) 06:59, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Gerne doch. Danke auch für den Hinweis. Schönes Wochenende :) DBarthel (WMF) (talk) 13:43, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

I am french,

Why is there no any other proposal langage on Wikipedia anymore? I loved to read articles in english and italian. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.89.244.62 (talk) 14:46, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

The language selector has moved: it is now at the top of the article, on the same line than page title, in the right side. -- Pols12 (talk) 15:07, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

This section was archived on a request by: ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 14:04, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Marking a page for translation

Hi, could someone mark Mailing lists/Unsubscribing for translation? Thanks! Legoktm (talk) 00:43, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Looks like this has been done by @Hasley. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 01:27, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

(Edit conflict.) Done. Sgd. —Hasley 01:28, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

This section was archived on a request by: ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 08:55, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Page move disaster

Browsing through Special:WantedCategories, I had found a number of categories full of translations of subpages of 2015 Community Wishlist Survey, which were all moved/redirected to corresponding subpages of Community Wishlist Survey 2015. This resulted in the pages being disconnected from their translations (while still remaining marked for translation and partially even getting duplicate translations). I've started at Community Wishlist Survey 2015/Bots and gadgets, which did not have any translations with this title yet, and unmarked it from translation to move the translated pages to the same title. Having done that, I started moving the corresponding translation unit pages to re-enable the translation extension without losing all the translations. After moving almost 200 of the just over 400 pages (using a script), the moves started to fail with "This namespace is reserved for content page translations. The page you are trying to edit does not seem to correspond to any page marked for translation." (which was not happening with the other unit pages). I decided it could work if I marked the page for translation at this point already, but it turned out that this failed as well, with "Page Community Wishlist Survey 2015/Bots and gadgets is not suitable for translation. Make sure it has <translate> tags and has a valid syntax.". I guess I should have discussed this somewhere before attempting to "fix" this myself, and I am very sorry for not doing so, but does anyone have suggestions how to proceed now? ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 13:16, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

It appears there was a fail involving Category:Community Wishlist Survey 2015/da already (ping @Jusjih). Not sure how the pages were moved without FuzzyBot moving the translation pages in the first place. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 13:24, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

What exactly is the problem, like which page. I can't understand the above. Like can we have one of the problematic page? Camouflaged Mirage (talk) 13:30, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

This is all related to Community Wishlist Survey 2015/Bots and gadgets currently. I can't re-mark the page for translation, and I can't move the remaining translation unit pages for 2015 Community Wishlist Survey/Bots and gadgets to use the current order. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 13:32, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

At least I managed to remark for translation, but then what are the units pages that cannot be moved? Camouflaged Mirage (talk) 13:35, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! I will try if I can now move the unit pages. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 13:36, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Hopefully you can do so, if not I think asking on Tech / phab might be needed. Camouflaged Mirage (talk) 13:39, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Looks like it works now (though with the translation enabled, it seems that I'll be doing twice as many edits). It's actually possible that due to the high number of related pages, FuzzyBot failed to move them together with the translatable page. Maybe @MusikAnimal knows more, since he appears to have done the moves a couple years ago. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 13:42, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

(Actually, I was doing multiple unit updates in one edit on the translation pages, so I did not do an extra edit for every move.) This move is now done, with all the remaining pages at Special:PrefixIndex/Translations:2015 Community Wishlist Survey/Bots and gadgets being English "translations" (should they be deleted as redundant?). If you take a look at a category like Category:2015 Community Wishlist Survey/bg though, you will see a number of similar pages where the connected translated page is now a redirect. They need to be fixed similarly. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 13:51, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Apparently, the other ones all have duplicate translations (from the original title and the current one) into da, ar, and arz. This will be quite hard to manage. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 13:53, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

So, a list of translation units at the translation pages of the current name ("Community Wishlist Survey 2015") compared to the corresponding translations of the old name ("2015 Community Wishlist Survey", where virtually all translations currently are) can now be found at User:1234qwer1234qwer4/Wishlist 2015 pages. It seems that the vast majority of the "new" translations can be deleted to make way for the move; the ones where no translation exists can just be kept, and the few cases where the translations are different can be handled by merging. I would like to hear some comments before I (or anybody else) proceed this time. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 15:57, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

I have no experience with this type of disasters, but your plan looks sensible. Ата ^(talk) 16:48, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there are probably many issues like this one. Stefan2 asked to report and fix them, but nobody handles this request. Translate extension has now been improved (and again), and talk pages will be well moved and a warning has been displayed when there is too much pages (>500) to be manually moved.

Thank you 1234qwer1234qwer4 for handling that big case (2015 CWS). When Translations: unit exists in both locations, we can probably keep the most recent. This indeed implies to delete old /en units which are necessarly older than the ones at new location.

I don’t know whether your list is supposed to be exhaustive, but many pages seems to miss. -- Pols12 (talk) 17:17, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@Pols12 My list shows all the translation unit pages under the new name, since they are what makes it harder to go ahead and move everything to the new name. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 17:19, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Oh, OK, sorry. According to me, they can all be skipped; this mass move seems me pretty safe. -- Pols12 (talk) 17:45, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────┘

So, I would propose the following procedure:

1. Move/merge updated translations at User:1234qwer1234qwer4/Wishlist 2015 pages to the old name to allow for step 2 without content loss
2. Delete translated pages of the new title (including the remaining units, which will be identical to the ones for the older page title) to make way for the move
3. Unmark page for translation and move translation subpages for attribution
4. Re-enable translation and move unit subpages to new title

What do you think, @Pols12? ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 18:06, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

I did not think about attribution. Indeed, if you want to keep authors in translation page history, you probably have to also move translation pages, not only translation units. But I’m not sure this is legally needed: these are only short translations, which often come from translation memory (so from unmentionned authors…).

For keeping attribution, your process seems me good. 🙂 -- Pols12 (talk) 18:58, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, I think there is quite a number of longer explanations, so I would prefer attribution. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 19:00, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Done for Community Wishlist Survey 2015/Categories as well now. Since there were apparently no arz translations originally, I had to restore Translations:Community Wishlist Survey 2015/Categories/16/arz, but I couldn't restore Community Wishlist Survey 2015/Categories/arz due to a bug with Special:Undelete and pages related to the translation extension, so I recreated it using a null edit at the translation page. Since the translation is short, this should not be a problem, but I'm going to be more careful with this in the future. Also, should I delete the orphaned English translations at Special:PrefixIndex/Translations:2015 Community Wishlist Survey/Categories now? ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 19:53, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Noting that the arz translations do not exist for the old titles at all, so I have not been touching them for the other pages. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 09:55, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Next page done, with orphaned English translations at Special:PrefixIndex/Translations:2015 Community Wishlist Survey/Commons. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 20:40, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Fourth one done; will stop for today. Special:PrefixIndex/Translations:2015 Community Wishlist Survey/Editing contains translation pages where the unit no longer exists apart from the English translations now. I think these can also be deleted. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 21:43, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

I decided to do the remaining ones in one run; a couple notes:

• I had to delete all translation units from the new name, including the merged ones and ones that were unique (did not exist under the old one), since I could not move them to the old page title ("This namespace is reserved for content page translations. The page you are trying to edit does not seem to correspond to any page marked for translation"). I restored the 21 affected unit pages after re-marking the pages for translation.
• Apparently, some pages were only translated to Arabic under the new title, which I had not noticed while deleting the translated pages. I will perform some null edits to the following translation unit pages to re-create the translated pages, since as mentioned, Special:Undelete does not allow me to restore their histories:
  • Translations:Community Wishlist Survey 2015/Multimedia/37/ar
  • Translations:Community Wishlist Survey 2015/Notifications/6/ar
  • Translations:Community Wishlist Survey 2015/Watchlists/20/ar
  • Translations:Community Wishlist Survey 2015/Wikidata/21/ar
  • Translations:Community Wishlist Survey 2015/Wikiversity/53/ar
• Apart from the (about 600) translation unit pages still using the old title (English translations, as well as units no longer existing on the page, which I could not move for that reason) listed at Special:PrefixIndex/Translations:2015 Community Wishlist Survey/, there is also a number of English translated pages at Special:PrefixIndex/2015 Community Wishlist Survey/. It should be safe to delete all of these, if this is requested.
• The translated categories the pages are now categorised under do not exist, but were deleted. For some reason, these translation pages can actually be restored, but other Community Wishlist Survey pages actually seem to use a different categorisation schema (by-year subcategories of Category:Community Wishlist Survey/Translations). Please tell me whether I should restore the pages or the categorisation should be adapted.

~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 15:31, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

I suppose the last one has to be commented on by those who currently support Wishlist; I hope it's ok to ping Szymon here. Ата ^(talk) 16:46, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

As for the /en pages mentioned, they can be deleted safely, as far as I can tell. – Ата ^(talk) 18:29, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Actually, the mainspace pages can just be redirected I think, as that will avoid breaking links, and I had also left redirects while moving the other translated pages. The pages in Translations: namespace I will just delete. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 18:34, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

It's been quite a while, but from my recollection I moved all translation pages over with a script. I may have skipped 2015 because it used a different format, and it was very old anyway and received comparatively few pageviews. My apologies for that, and thanks for cleaning up my mess!

I don't believe myself or anyone at Community Tech set up the Category:Community Wishlist Survey/Translations system. Whatever you think makes sense I'm sure is fine. The re-usable messages are categorized at Category:Community Wishlist Survey/Messages, and to my knowledge this is the only work we did in the way of categorizing translations. — MusikAnimal ^talk 21:11, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Apparently the 2015 survey has more subpages marked for translation than the other surveys, so marking the 2015 category for translation again seems reasonable. @Kaganer Any comment on this? ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 18:51, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

NP. To fit the general approach, I can bring all translations back into one general category. Kaganer (talk) 02:26, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

The /en pages in Translations: namespace are now deleted. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 22:28, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Note that I didn't delete the 29 nonexistent/removed translation units still at Special:PrefixIndex/Translations:2015 Community Wishlist Survey/ yet. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 10:26, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

What's /en good for?

I just faced a problem with the translation of a template, Template:BoardChart, that didn't show up properly on the page where it was included, for example Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees. I then saw, that there is a /en subpage for English, which is something I can't come up with any reason for. I first tried to purge all caches, to get the corrected version of the template shown, but it didn't work. So now I have two questions:

1. Why is there such a useless subpage at all? The main pages are English in this anglocentric Wikiverse, there's absolutely no use for an /en subpage.
2. Who could trigger the translation process, so that the new version will show up?

I already asked this on both talk pages, but especially the first one is a more general question, that probably belongs rather here. Grüße vom Sänger ♫^(Reden) 12:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

1. The /en subpage contains the text without all the translation markup, which is useful, as the documentation points out, for translatable templates and if one wanted to export it. {{TNT}} makes us of it.
2. I marked the page for translation now, which makes the changes show up on the translated pages. --MF-W 14:48, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

   But why isn't the master inserted in such pages, but this strange subpage, that's only for documentation purp9ses? I expect a template to show up asap in the pages, where it is included, at least on the original, i.e. english, page. Grüße vom Sänger ♫^(Reden) 19:06, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

   Ah, btw: the page for the board is still not translatable, so only the English version is up to date. Grüße vom Sänger ♫^(Reden) 19:11, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

   /en translation subpages exist because every language could have translation subpages, and not every page that's tagged for translation is in English as a base language. Yes it's most of them, but it's not all of them. Vermont (talk) 01:32, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

   This is a technical requirement: pages are not transcluded themselves, their /en subpage is transcluded instead. To update /en subpage from source page, a translation admin (TA) needs to “mark the page for translation”.

   Several TA regularly check for translatable page updates, but you may ping TA here (or directly) if this is urgent.

   What is “the page for the board”? Both WMF BoT and Template:BoardChart are translatable. Pols12 (talk) 14:31, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Markup request

Could a translation admin please enable translation-aware transclusion on Grants:APG/Proposals/2016-2017 round 1. The page is transcluded on Grants:APG/Proposals, and is causing literal translate markup to show up on that page (inside a collapse box). Thanks. * Pppery * _{it has begun} 00:02, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

@Pppery: Done, along with a couple of other translation-related fixes. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 00:38, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

This section was archived on a request by: Tacsipacsi (talk) 00:38, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia Asian Month 2021 - landing page

We are halfway through, and could we push the landing page to internationalise/localise? Funny it's an editathon and those NON-English reading/writing editors are kept away to comprehend the details of this initiative. Added languages tag already. Cheers, Omotecho (talk) 05:30, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Doing... I would like to clean wikifying (HTML/CSS) first. -- Pols12 (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Done for main page, however transcluded templates still need an internationalization. -- Pols12 (talk) 22:43, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Help with translating the captions for this Wikimedia Sound Logo Project video

Hi everyone, I'm hoping to promote the Wikimedia Sound Logo project with this video and could use some help with translating the English captions, any help is appreciated, thank you!

Sound Logo project

VGrigas (WMF) (talk) 00:07, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Centralnotice/FAQ add to NavBar

Hi,

Can someone help me with adding this page to the Navbar, and correcting the translation link in the navbar?

I assumed I could, but it doesn't show up yet on the CentralNotice pages yet... :D Ciell (talk) 16:15, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Seems done by Hasley. -- Pols12 (talk) 19:10, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Done. Sgd. —Hasley 19:10, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! Ciell (talk) 08:23, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Updates to Parsoid for improved support for translate extension

As part of T261181, Parsoid has been updated to provide better support for translate and tvar tags. This hasn't been deployed to production yet, but the changes will roll out to production as part of the MediaWiki train this week. Once the train rolls out on a wiki, it should be possible to edit pages with translate tags in VisualEditor including content with the translate tags as well. However, this is still considered alpha support and we do not recommend intensive editing of translatable content via VisualEditor yet. But, we definitely welcome additional testing and feedback. Please keep your eyes on VE edits of these pages and report any problems that you see (see below for more info about where to report them).

Some heads up about this rollout:

1. If the MediaWiki train is temporarily rolled back this week, in the period of the rollback, some pages edited with VE might temporarily see translate and tvar tags get converted to <meta /> tags. Please revert any such edits. No longer applicable.
2. This feature will work better on pages that uses the newer syntax for tvar tags. On pages using the older syntax, depending on the edit, Parsoid might either automatically convert some tvar tags to the new syntax around the edited region OR might potentially cause other dirty diffs.
3. If the page has translate tags that nest improperly with other tags, VE edits on those pages might not work very well just yet.
4. Overall, the rollout this week is an early update to evaluate and test this feature beyond all the testing we have done so far in development. We expect to iron out additional problems in the coming weeks. In the worst case, if there are a lot of disruptions, we'll disable this support and revisit this in the new year.

Please feel free to reach out to me directly on wiki, on phabricator (on T261181 above or by filing new tasks with the Parsoid tag), or on the #mediawiki-parsoid channel on IRC if you have any questions or see any problems.

SSastry (WMF) (talk) 20:25, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Followup (Dec 7)

We decided to split the deploy across two trains so this feature is not being enabled this week after all. I'll update this again if we decide to roll it out next week. SSastry (WMF) (talk) 19:58, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Followup (Dec 16)

This has now been deployed. If you want to test this, you might have to first purge the cached content (via ?action=purge, and only needed the first time) to make sure VisualEditor gets the updated HTML from Parsoid. This now enables you to edit content within translate tags in VE without needing to edit it as wikitext. We'll gradually improve support and iron out bugs and till that time, we'll leave behind the VE notice about these pages being unsupported in VisualEditor. But, please report any problems or bad dirty diffs you see. Thanks! SSastry (WMF) (talk) 22:35, 16 December 2021 (UTC)