Template talk:Welcome/Archive 1

Uma sugestão

Acho que dever haver um parágrafo assim:

Se você já participa de um projeto Wikimedia e deseja ajudar o meta...

Listando links de votações (incluindo de eliminação), pedidos, traduções, páginas de ajuda, combate ao vandalismo, etc... -- Slade ^pt.wp 02:59, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

É uma boa idéia. O link poderia ser um só (para manter a mensagem o mais curta possível): para o Meta:Babylon. Redux 02:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Suggest improvements to current text

Quote: This website is dedicated to coordinating and discussing all the projects of the Wikipedia family.

This use of "Wikipedia", I think, is not politically tenable. By names, "Wikipedia" is the name of an encyclopedia. Remember that we have other projects, and that not everyone is participating in Wikipedia. Using the term "Wikipedia family", though it is technically correct, suggests that all of the Wikimedia projects are part of Wikipedia. They are not.

I agree. Best is Wikimedia projects, or Wikimedia family. -- Slade ^pt.wp 16:19, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Of course. Sorry, that was a quid pro quo on my part. We're always saying "Wikipedia, Wikipedia.." on en.wp, so I was on autopilot. Good catch. Redux 02:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Quote: read our policy page before starting to edit.

I presume that if you are welcoming someone to Meta, then they have already edited, so I would remove those last four words.

In PT we usually welcome new users after thy register their accounts... --Slade ^pt.wp 16:19, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Naturally, we can't welcome anyone until they've made at least a couple of edits, even if it's just to create their userpage. But ideally, the welcome message comes before new users start editing heavily (and if so), so that they can get their bearings before doing too much that needs undoing. Perhpas we could use a rewording for a more accurate description. What about: read our policy page before you edit further? Redux 02:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Quote: ... leave a message for anyone in the communiy (sic) at Babel, the Meta version of the Village Pump.

I suggest removing this section. The Meta:Babel is not intended for random ThreadMode discussion, but instead to link to discussions on other talk page, as Meta:Babel instructs: "As far as possible, please leave your messages on the Talk page of a relevant article with full details, and leave just a single line here with a link to it."

But it will be very useful to users with questions about the function or cordination of this project. A message like If you have any question, please contact a sysop, or post a message in Babel, or answer me on my talk page... --Slade ^pt.wp 16:19, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of the nature of Babel; the idea was that the message would be useful for a completely new user to find out that it even exists. Once there, the newcomer would presumably read the explanations at the top of the page. But again, I'll do some rewording to improve this. Redux 02:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

My suggestion for the English version is: Hello Welcome/Archive 1, and welcome to the Wikimedia Meta-Wiki! This website is for coordinating and discussing all of Wikimedia projects. You may find it useful to read our policy page. If you would like, feel free to ask me questions in my talk page. Happy editing!

--Kernigh 20:37, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Spanish version, changes to English

I added a Spanish translation of the welcome text (though a native speaker could probably find an error or two to fix). I also changed the English version in line with Kernigh's suggestions (which I thought were all good and valid). Do we want to change it to "Good luck!" instead of "Happy editing!" to be in line with the other languages? --Cromwellt|talk 15:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I suggest to see commons' welcome message. In a couple of days i will bring a lot of useful links to include in this message. -- Slade ^pt.wp 16:19, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Found & fixed a small error or two. Good job, Cromwellt :-) Ev 16:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

While improving

While we are working on improving the message, I suggest we focus on editing only the English version, which is the one everyone (or almost everyone, anyways :)) can understand. Once we've reached a final version, we can proceed to making similar alterations in the other languages. Redux 02:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Marking languages

I've attempted to mark the languages accordingly according to Meta:Language select (even if the Javascript doesn't get implement, lang="" is a good idea). Shoot me if I got it wrong (and fix it, please) Ambush Commander 21:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I can see what you were trying to do, but unless I'm wrong (perhaps it's my browser...), it's causing the different languages to sort of mix together. Maybe we could try to separate the different languages by using a format like this:

en

text text

pt

text text

es

text text

Maybe this will make for a clearer division? In any case, I think we can forgo the shooting squad for this one ;) Redux 23:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I see what you're talking about. The traditional way to demarcate the languages is add 'en: to the beginning... we could also try fiddling with global site CSS to make DIVs in multilingual classes get margins. For now, the BR trick could do. — Ambush Commander^(Talk) 23:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Aha! Giving them their own line helped a bit. — Ambush Commander^(Talk) 23:20, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

If this method doesn't work, we can use the language subpage. Example: the message will sent in english, but the user can adptate the messages in any language, with {{welcome/pt}}, {{welcome/es}}, {{welcome/fr}}, {{welcome/de}}, {{welcome/ja}}... Like Commons! --Slade ^pt.wp 15:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, technically speaking, this method doesn't work currently. The JavaScript code on Meta:Language select must be copied to common.js before anything happens. — Ambush Commander^(Talk) 20:43, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

That could be a problem. Presumably, a newly registered user will not have the JavaScript code (or much of anything else) in place by the time the welcome message is left for him/her. Perhaps we should take this into account and use "manual" coding for this message? Maybe we should make this as simple as possible in every way, coding included, presuming that the new user won't know which way is which when s/he gets this message? Redux 04:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

(reset tab) No, I meant the global site CSS (Which will apply for everyone). Someone's got to audit the code and then post it, because even though I should be able to be trusted (I'm admin on en.wikipedia), whoever adds the code will have to take some responsibility for it. And plus it needs to be maintained and cross-browser tested (I've done tests on the latest versions of Opera, IE and Firefox, and not much more). And there needs to be the ability to overloaded/disabled) it if the browser is configured for the wrong language.

Regarding multiple templates, I have trouble recognizing languages beyond the major ones, so I would rather have the browser automatically detect it. — Ambush Commander^(Talk) 20:52, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah, ok. I'd volunteer, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to do all that :( And speaking of multiple languages, I had thought originally that the message would be only in the "major" languages. I figure if it's in too many languages, it'll get way too long for it to be posted on people's talk pages. I thought maybe en, es, pt, de, it fr, and a couple more (pl, zh, cs and/or ja), which are the languages I've run into the most — meaning: my listing is based on my experience of what appears to be the most recurring languages on Meta; this is by no measure peremptory, of course. Redux 19:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

...depending on whether or not we can get the messages translated in the first place. ;-) (someday I'll nominate myself for adminship on Meta. I've done a bit of work here.) — Ambush Commander^(Talk) 19:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I can translate it into most of the languages I've mentioned, so at least the "major" languages should not be any problem. Redux 20:08, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Blank lines

After the text, exist a blank space. It's supposed to sign is placed after "Good luck", but... Someone can fix? --Slade ♠ 00:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

This template must be substituted.

{{welcome|hillgentleman}} will create a section with an edit link, which leads the user to edit the template itself.--Hillgentleman 01:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I've insered the __NOEDITSECTION__. --Slade ♠ 18:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That prevents section editing of any section on the page it is transcluded on, which is rather annoying. What's wrong with substitution? —{admin} Pathoschild 18:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe <noinclude>? --Slade ♠ 19:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Then the section can be edited, which edits the template. The best solution is to simply remove the header, or substitute the template. —{admin} Pathoschild 21:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I would favor substituting the template. If we ever get to a point where there are so many languages available that it would become a problem for the template to be copied into people's userpages, then we should consider removing the header. Redux 15:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, must it be substituted? It makes the talk page, sooooo long :) --Majorly 23:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Multilingual version

Could someone please explain me why was the multilingual version of this template dumped by Spacebirdy on 21 May 2008? Was this discussed somewhere else? Thanks, --Capmo 11:35, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Punctuation

There needs to be a comma after "Hello" in the introductory text for this template. It should read like this: "Hello, {{PAGENAME}}, and welcome [...]". See here for more information on the usage of the direct address comma. Thanks! B.Rossow · talk 15:09, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I think this is uncontroversial so I did some changes on the template, and added a documentation subpage too. Please review if everything is OK. Best, —Marco Aurelio (Nihil Prius Fide) 19:24, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Looks perfect to me. Thanks for the correction! B.Rossow · talk 19:26, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Hola a todos. Es mi primera vez en este sitio tan genial. Quisiera saber donde o como puedo descargar toda esta genialidad que es Wiki Media con todos susu otros proyectos para llevarlo a Cuba

add Template:Welcome/diq

I want to adding Template:Welcome/diq.--Tarakayska (talk) 06:58, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

If you need help

{{editprotected}} Can this template be changed to say "You can also leave a note on Meta:Babel or Wikimedia Forum if you need help with something" (my emphasis, just for this comment). Users keep leaving useless "thank you for the welcome" comments at Meta:Babel. This change probably won't make much of a difference, but it's worth a shot. - dcljr (talk) 06:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Done. Seems like a good idea. --MF-W 21:25, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

User name

{{editprotected}} Can someone please change the template, so that the name doesn’t change into something like "Username/Archive1", if the welcome message is being archived? This doesn’t really look well, so I changed that in the archive. It would be better, if the name stays, as it was before. I’ll try this here: {{subst:PAGENAME}} changes into "Welcome", so it seems to work this way. --Winternacht (talk) 23:18, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it works, as I’m seeing now. So, it can be changed. But it has to be made sure that it doesn’t change into "Welcome" in the template. So, how can this be done for the bot to take it the right way? --Winternacht (talk) 23:20, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

That could be achieved with safesubst:. I changed it to {{BASEPAGENAME}}. --Glaisher (talk) 12:22, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, that’s a good idea. --Winternacht (talk) 22:38, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Long Table of Contents can appear mid-template; looks very strange

When this template is used before any other section of a page, as it typically is, and that page ends up having a lot of sections, this results in the language selector box being separated from the rest of the stuff from the template by a long table of contents, which is quite confusing. See, for example, this version of User:DanelTom --SamB (talk) 21:49, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

The example link (stricken out by me) in the comment above appears to have been accidentally mis-linked by SamB, and was obviously meant to link to this version of User_talk:DanielTom. --Pipetricker (talk) 00:17, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Stopping substituting this template

Why do we do the ridiculous of substituting this template. It is of far more value to be an active template with active text, rather than static text that rots on someones talk page from a point in time. I suggest that we stop subst: ing , remove text that requires it, and stop bots wandering through and doing it.  — billinghurst sDrewth 16:56, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Or make it Lua, so it can be kept un-subst'ed and not overloading the db with thousands of transclusions maybe. —MarcoAurelio (talk) 10:39, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Protected edit request: Place all template content below the section heading

Please move the line == Welcome to Meta! == to the very top of the template code, so the template message won't be split by a table of contents or by archiving.
See also the earlier talk section #Long Table of Contents can appear mid-template; looks very strange. --Pipetricker (talk) 00:18, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Done, thanks. —MarcoAurelio (talk) 10:41, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Now when the template has been fixed, can the thousands of substs on talk pages be fixed too?

Can the more than 10,000 user talk pages where this template had already been substed be fixed, like the above edit request, by a bot? --Pipetricker (talk) 20:18, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request: Add the template name in a hidden comment for traceability of future substs

Please insert the string <!-- Template:Welcome --> immediately before the <noinclude> tag. --Pipetricker (talk) 20:34, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Done. Thanks, —MarcoAurelio (talk) 12:26, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 17 February 2019

The header should be changed from <h2> Welcome to Meta! </h2> to == Welcome to Meta! == since the template is meant to be substituted. This keeps it in line with the other welcome messages and keeps the standard talk page formatting when it is eventually substituted. We might also need to restore the {{<includeonly>subst:</includeonly>void|{{error:not substituted|welcome}}}} portion in order to make sure it is being used correctly. Nihlus 22:55, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

It isn't always substituted. Substituting is such an old practice, what value is there in that? Much prefer that we move away from the substitution aspect. Also prefer that we migrate the template to the translation system.  — billinghurst sDrewth 23:19, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

It should be substituted (that's the point I am trying to make). Leaving a single template at the top of a talk page breaks the page formatting and potential archiving. Further, making future changes to the template requires an evaluation of all preceding usages of it as it will alter every page that it is transcluded on. There's a reason there are over a thousand automatically substituted templates on enwiki. Nihlus 23:36, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

There is an alternative to substituting welcome messages, and that is the point that I am trying to make. This is a different wiki than enWP and the amount of talk page archiving that happens here is miniscule, and it doesn't break formatting and archiving at all. This is a multi-language wiki, and the availability of users changing their language preference allows a different approach when we use active translated templates, rather than static substituted templates. Just because enWP does something in a way, does not mean that it is a good universal choice.  — billinghurst sDrewth 01:50, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

And just because enwiki does something doesn't mean it's intrinsically bad. I'd be fine with a template that uses the translation system, but, until we have that, we should continue using this template as needed and as instructed, and edits that break substitution should be reverted. Nihlus 06:24, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Who said anything about bad? I simply don't agree with either your assessment that we should continue a practice, or the specified consequences of discontinuing the practice. Having an unsubstituted template allows for the conversion to this translated system as it will dynamically adapt. Substituting the template leaves us at a static point in time.  — billinghurst sDrewth 07:43, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

The message should be retained when it was communicated to the user. Changing these messages days, weeks, or months later serves no purpose and provides no information to the individuals who have received the welcome message prior to any update that might come. Nihlus 22:06, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Says who? Why should it be static? That is a very old way of thinking. You keep harping back to a way that is a way and is the way elsewhere but is static, is limited in what it can do and can be. You are caught up in a way of thinking. You don't talk in terms of benefits of that way, whereas the means forward with our translation system in place where we will always be able to present the current information in the language of their preference.  — billinghurst sDrewth 07:38, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, you are the one who is wanting to change how a template is used without offering any alternative. You are the one who has taken it upon himself to use a template in way that is contrary to all of the documentation on it and contrary to how it is coded. You are the one who is now tasked with submitting alternatives since you are the one who wants to change how it is fundamentally used. Nihlus 08:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

• Outside of the subst/unsubst questions - any technical objections to updating <h2> tags to == ? — xaosflux ^Talk 14:38, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

  Yes, where people who click the section edit link, they edit the template, not the page.  — billinghurst sDrewth 21:48, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

  Because it is meant to be substituted. You can't change how a template is used now based on what you want the functionality to be in the future. Nihlus 22:06, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

  and why it has been changed.  — billinghurst sDrewth 07:39, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

  Your change has obviously been challenged. You do not have unilateral authority here. Until you propose a change that fundamentally alters the usage of translations, I will be opposed to your change and the method in which you use the template. Nihlus 08:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

• Sidenote:I had substituted the template countless times and nothing is faulty, so didn't see the need for any fixes on the substitution part. Regards,--Cohaf (talk) 07:43, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

  @Cohaf: If you substitute it how it is now, there are no edit section links for someone to reply to your message if they wish to go that route. Billinghurst has made the change to the template to fit his alternative and incorrect method of use. Nihlus 08:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

  There is an edit tag at the top of every page, and we are talking about an initial response to the first and only section on a page. I think that is a faux argument.  — billinghurst sDrewth 10:54, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

  Tried again using substitution at User talk:1.02 editor. Nothing wrong and per billinghurst, the add a topic should be adequate. Sorry I don't see any issues with it. If there's a need, what I'll suggest is in the welcome message something like a {{help me}} or a note to that button can be included for us to help those really confused. Regards,--Cohaf (talk) 04:54, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

  We should not be cutting off features of pages. Period. The edit section link is an important one and one used by almost everyone who edits the site. We are gaining nothing and losing much by keeping these changes. If you want to change how a template has been used for years, it requires discussion and consensus before making changes that have been challenged. I fail to see how this could not be any clearer. Nihlus 05:29, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

  I personally see no need to edit the welcome section and find it a little annoying sometimes to misclick it. My personal take only, hope for clearer community inputs. Shall this be transferred to here?--Cohaf (talk) 20:09, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

  Can't we just move to making this a properly translated template so we are getting it into more languages, and making the whole conversation moot, and being able to offer a welcome in more languages, and to be able to make it more dynamic.  — billinghurst sDrewth 01:08, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

  It's clear that that is the best option; however, this template version should not be ignored in the meantime. Nonetheless, I've yet to see a basic framework of what you want this template to look like as a translated version. Is there an existing version of a template somewhere that you want to copy? Nihlus 01:44, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Not done I've deactivated the edit request as there is still ongoing discussion as to what change to make. Once a consensus has been established, feel free to reactivate. — xaosflux ^Talk 19:50, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: We need consensus in order to overturn a challenged edit? Nihlus 01:44, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

@Nihlus: on protected templates where the edit request is disputed - it needs to be discussed. — xaosflux ^Talk 06:01, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: It's only being done through an edit request because the editor who made the change that is being challenged is inappropriately using the protection level of the template to reinforce his position. Nihlus 06:06, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

If you think there is misuse of admin access, bring it up at RFH for review. — xaosflux ^Talk 06:09, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

That's a disappointing response. It shouldn't take a formal review for administrators to do the right thing. I will not waste my time on that as it will go no where. Nihlus 06:21, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

• @Billinghurst: Do you have any plans to move forward with the version that you are basing your changes on (i.e. a translated version)? If you want to set this template up differently, it would be better to have it sooner rather than later as these changes are still causing me to make two edits in order to use it properly, which leads to two notifications of for the person I am welcoming. Nihlus 18:07, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

  Reopening as this still has not been addressed. Nihlus 20:06, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

  @Xaosflux: Can we change the first line from

  <h2> Welcome to Meta! </h2>

  to this:

  {{{{{|safesubst:}}}#ifeq:{{{{{|safesubst:}}}NAMESPACE}}|{{NAMESPACE}}|<h2> Welcome to Meta! </h2>|== Welcome to Meta! ==}}

  It keeps the functionality that we both are seeking by preventing users from editing the template if it is not substituted but also allowing users to edit the section if it is substituted. Nihlus 18:20, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

• Examples of the old and proposed change that @Nihlus: made just above are at User:Xaosflux/sandbox. While our work is never done on improving things, I'm not seeing any negatives to this proposed change in the meantime, do you @Billinghurst:? — xaosflux ^Talk 13:03, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

  @Xaosflux: Can this be implemented? Enough time has passed for anyone to raise their objections. Nihlus 03:04, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Done @Nihlus: this has been implemented. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:43, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Edit Request: PAGENAME magic word

As seen in my archive {{BASEPAGENAME}} will show RhinosF1/Archive in my archives. This should be changed to {{ROOTPAGENAME}} which will only show RhinosF1. RhinosF1 (talk) 06:35, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Done. --Steinsplitter (talk) 17:56, 18 May 2019 (UTC)