Talk:Tech/News/2017/11

References lists

"the change can happen for all reference lists" - what else "reference lists" are available? --Wargo (talk) 12:31, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Reference lists that use the templates that need to be updated. (: I'll see if I can clarify that in some simple way. /Johan (WMF) (talk) 15:23, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

What are "references lists"? Templates that use <references /> or other ways to display them (tags...)? --Wargo (talk) 15:27, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

A reference list is the list of footnotes you get when you have used the <ref> and <references /> tags. /Johan (WMF) (talk) 15:29, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

No, this is not problem. Explain what quoted fragment on begining of this thread means. --Wargo (talk) 15:48, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Right, sorry for the confusion. So at the moment reference lists that use templates with the references tag can't use this. When they have been updated, all references lists, including the ones using the mentioned templates, can do so. /Johan (WMF) (talk) 16:07, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

OK, Johan, I'm completely confused. It's the fifth version I hear, and all of them are different. Could you explain the news here in regular, non simplifyed English, please? IKhitron (talk) 16:13, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Sure. We can get ref list in multiple columns without need to edit CSS, use templates or anyhthing like that, but the templates that already do this on some wikis need to be fixed before it can work properly, so the functionality will be deployed inactivated to give template editors time to fix their templates.

(I'm on a plane that's about to take off in a couple of minutes, so further replies to this from me can take a while.) /Johan (WMF) (talk) 16:22, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I believe you should rephrase the last sentence in the news, because I can't understand it, or what it has with the explanation you just gave. And there is some confusion about dates. When there will be any change? Will it be before the need to fix the templates. Until when they should be fixed? Could the fix start right now? How many will be given for the change? IKhitron (talk) 17:10, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

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Hello, IKhitron and Wargo – and also User:RexxS and User:Nihiltres, because this complicates intersects with a different project that we were working on at enwiki. I've been looking into this recently, so let me try to answer a few questions. (And please {{ping}} me with questions; I'll be around before Tech News gets sent out.)

• The change is happening in the (server) software next week. But you won't see any change locally/on actual articles. Thus, this is "news" for tech folks (including people running third-party wikis), but not really "news" for editors, as nothing's happening from their POV.
• The reason you won't see the change is because the {{reflist}} templates might 'break' if the devs just turn it on. For example, if you've told the local template to display two columns in an article (because that's what looks nice on your laptop), but this code says that three will fit on my wider screen, then I might see six columns when I read that article. (And the person reading on a small smartphone will still see two narrow columns, instead of the one that the software recommends for that width.)
  • If your wiki uses {{reflist}} templates, then the template should either be updated to cope (when convenient; directions sort of given in Krinkle's comment at the Phab ticket) or you could stop using the template (e.g., if the only reason you had the template was to get columns).
  • Many Wikipedias and other projects, notably including the German Wikipedia, do not use these templates. Those wikis can have this feature enabled next week, or whenever they want.
• Getting the feature turned on for your wiki requires an easy config change. Just file a Phab task when/if your wiki's ready, and it'll probably happen the next week. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T159895 is the generic ticket for per-wiki support, so you could file a sub-task off that (or {{ping}} me if you don't want to deal with Phab).
  • I think I'll make a list of wikis that aren't using these templates; at least the smaller ones could be contacted (to make sure they don't object unexpectedly) and enabled en masse (but later. Nothing visible is happening next week).

If you have more questions, please {{ping}} me. I'll check in at least once over the weekend, too. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:47, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation, @Whatamidoing (WMF):. I have no more questions about the dates of changes. I still have two question on other things: I did not understand from your words and the phab ticket, what will be the change? I mean: 1) What will be the result after the change without any new parameters? With "responsive"? With responsive = 0? = 1? = 2? = 3? And we should fix it before the change, what will be different with these parameters before the change? And will there be any error of unknown parameter tracking category before the change? It should not be. 2) What will happen with local gadgets that change the references view? Thank you. IKhitron (talk) 17:58, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Before it's enabled on your local wiki, you will only be able to see the effect by manually added the "responsive" tag to a page with >10 ref tags.

After it's enabled on your local wiki,

• no parameters will show the dynamic columns for long lists. (Short lists will not be affected either way.)
• "responsive" will show the dynamic columns for long lists.
• "responsive=0" will always show a single column. I don't know what the other options will do; my best guess is that either it must be 0 (everything else is ignored) or that it will follow the usual programming conventions (e.g., 0 and false have the same effect).
• I've not heard of any new tracking categories being created (or needed).
• I'm not familiar with any local gadgets that change the ref view. Can you give me an example or two? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:32, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

See also mw:Editing/Projects/Columns for references, which I've just created. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:35, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Gadgets will work until they not change number of columns. No need for tracking category - this change can only affect one template on your wiki or any. --Wargo (talk) 18:38, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, @Whatamidoing (WMF):. I understood almost at all. I did not talk about new tracking categories. There is an existing tracking category with a big fat mediawiki message "you can't use any parameter in references tag but group". The code should be fixed before this Tue, so that responsive parameter will not be recognized as error. The text of the message should be fixed too, "but group or responsive". About the gadgets, see he:MediaWiki:Gadget-refStyle.js or ru:MediaWiki:Gadget-collapserefs.js. IKhitron (talk) 18:45, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Whatamidoing (WMF): Thank you for writing up and linking to a longer explanation! /Johan (WMF) (talk) 23:09, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

For that page to be able to help understanding this issue by adding more information than can be done in Tech News, I've also marked it for translation. /Johan (WMF) (talk) 15:19, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Hello, @Whatamidoing (WMF):. Could I ask you one more question, please? As I understood, this change is something that comes to all wikis, and will be done for each of them when they will be ready, by using T159895. Other tech people on my wiki think that it is something that every wiki will or will not ask, depends on what dit it want. Who is right? Thank you, IKhitron (talk) 15:22, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

These sound like identical answers to me. The feature will be enabled by default (that is, plain <references /> and <references responsive /> will do the same thing) when a wiki is ready; it is likely that a few wikis will never be "ready".

Editors who actually understand the accessibility problems will support this change. Nobody actually wants Wikipedia articles to have refs that are hard to read. Even if it looks fine on my mid-size desktop screen, I want everyone, regardless of screen width or zoom level, to be able to read the sources we used. Consequently, while it may take some time to update templates at some wikis, or to explain the problem to some editors, I expect it to be enabled for all Wikipedias/Wiktionaries/Wikivoyages/Wikiquotes, because nobody there is going to say that he really wants this mess on anybody's screen. Every editor wants this.

On the other hand, it might not be appropriate for Wikisource, which tries to mimic the physical appearance of the original source. If "enabling" it means that they have to put <references responsive="0" /> on thousands of pages, then I'd rather keep it turned off (they could still specifically invoke it on individual pages) for those wikis. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:12, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your explanation. IKhitron (talk) 17:28, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Template translation

What code with "Template translation" does here in source? Previously not present. --Wargo (talk) 21:08, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Wargo: Sorry, my fault, that was a mistake. See User talk:Johan (WMF)#Tech news for background. /Johan (WMF) (talk) 14:11, 14 March 2017 (UTC)