Talk:Communication Projects Group/Projects/WM Outreach Japan

Raise my hand

Hello. I'm Horlicks from Japan. I would be glad if I can help your project. I have found some troubles on Meta-Wiki with the communication between Japanese speakers and others, and I worry about it. I'm not like an English native speaker, but I have an experience to be a foreign exchange student (AFS student), so maybe I can help on growing intercultural understandings. Regards, --Horlicks 02:44, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Great :) --Yukichi99 19:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't raise my hand, but...

Hi. I'm not good at English, so I support Horlicks Rising his hand and I don't raise my hand...（ごめん。なので、意味分からなそうなところは修正してくれると助かります＞Horlicksさん）

There is some confusion on ja:Wikipedia:井戸端/subj/Metaの日本語版向けプロジェクト about this project.

Let me know the purpose of this project. Don't expect too much for the discussion at Wikimedia Japan. user:Syohei.A is 15years old, user:kazutoko is junior high school student, user:Adr6721 is born in 1989, and user:Ball is banned.

... and Let me know what "translater" and "bridges" means. User who this project need is...

• translater who translate some text if needed?
• some user who willing to join meta?
• some user who can talk English? "talk" means quick response such as chat on IRC.
• some user who can join meta to discuss?
• those who can explain what is going on in jawp?
• those who can explain the difference of habits or background of it?

I think, information of meta can flow into Ja, if it is written on meta as policy or so. Reading is much easier for most Japanese. The problem will be that meta cannot recognize it because not-JA users cannot read Japanese and that JA user donot feedback to meta in English.

I found a comment in the log. User:htchie1 said "We might need to have some media coverage in Japan to change what ja people think". I wonder how En community really understand Ja community and how they got to know Ja community have to change(htchie1, I don't intend to attack you!). To improve communication, what we have to do is, that En/meta users understand Ja community as it is and that Ja community explain about Ja community in English. Then, we can discuss Ja community need to change or not.

There are three routes out.

• Reliable people of En/Ja speaker join to meta to discuss.
• Translater undertake to translate huge amount of text.

...It is not easy thing.

If a large group of people who can speak English and Japanese join to meta/En community, the project is easily proceed. Yes, not a few people can translate En/Ja. Most of translater seem to prefer to translate articles. It will be important to ask them to help to be bridge and to encourage more Ja people not to hesitate. But translation of article, translation of policy, translation of discussion, talking something in English, understanding Ja community, telling what's going on in jawp to another project, mediating meta/foundation's matter and local projects' community, are all different thing.

Remember that only a vote lead to more explanaton about Ja culture such as these memos and translating huge amount of text as User:Holick's User:Horlicks/Translation. It is also important for this project to understand a "translater" don't represent Ja community.

• So, if the purpose of the project is improving communication between En/Ja community, Ja community need to set a place to discuss this project in Japanese. Then we summarize and translate it.

How about it? JA community is not close. If you take so, it is JA language which you can't read, that make it close. Reach out, we'll be there. --Ks aka 98 18:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I have read your comment as you asked me to. And, I think it is O.K.. What I think about your question is that they probably need someone to help communications between Ja community and others, and between Japanese speakers and non-speakers. "To help communications" means that to make one's thoughts or opinions or decisions to go through toward others (on both ways). So, I think the role is like an ambassader and an interpreter. Well, including that point, we should have some discussions and that is what they currently want us to do, I guess. --Horlicks 02:29, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I'm just passing by meta RC, and found this topic. Ks aka 90 gives thoughtful insight about jawiki community though, I think his arguments contains several typical misunderstandings or ambiguities of jawiki communities, including:

• There is Ja community or Ja commumity is just equal to jawiki community. Respectfully I'd disagree. While it is the biggest part of Japanese speaking community, Jawiki is not the all of so-called "Ja community". The same applies to "En" community.
• Also there is not so-said "En" community and "Ja" one issue, and some statements of Ks aka 98 simply shows his misunderstanding of the global Wikimedia movement and its community dynamics. For example, designated H.T.Chien as "En" community part is simply based on your lack of understanding of neighboring communities - Htchien is a significant part of Zhwiki community: Secretary of Wikimedia Taiwan, just having visited the USA occasionally at that time, etc.
• Also there is not an issue between "meta" and "jawiki" (said "JA" but I prefer the preciseness here). Regardless to jawiki status, meta community, which I hope it wouldn't be boastful for me to claim I am one of its significant part, per se has nothing to do with this issue generally. Rather it could be said it would be an issue between "global Wikimedia community" and Jawiki community or Japanese speaking community as a whole.

Summarizing the above, Ks aka 90's argument shows, so I am afraid, misunderstanding of other Wikimedia parts, hence it eventually reveals insularity of jawiki or at least one of its significant members.

The question "whether Ja(wiki) community is close (sic)" arose. Here again I disagree with you, Ks aka 90, respectfully. There is almost no information, no opinion and no voice expressed to the outside of community. I have recently talked with other Japanese open movement community people, including Koyama Tetsushi, former president of Japan Unix Society, and they pointed out the activities of "Japanese Wikipedia community" were hardly recognized as movement. It is hard even for Japanese speaking people what is going on Japanese Wikipedia, and they seem to think Japanese Wikipedia has no visible point - can we call such a project "not closed"? So respectfully at this point I disagree with you, Ks aka 90: it is no mere language barrier issue in my observation. Next, let us turn our eyes to the Wikimedia project - how many people has given opinions to the project as a whole, not Jawiki particularly concerned? How many ja developers do we have? (Zh has at least one developer, and IIRC no Japanese). Honestly I think it is trivial Japanese speaking community is close from the contradicted appearance of your argument that are based on misunderstanding (so information flow to jawiki isn't good) and failed to see how it lacks currently the ability to express itself both to the Wikimedia community and to the external people either in Japanese or in other languages.

I think I have helped it out for years as well as other people like Tomos, but I have also other concerns both irf and on this online project. Besides my opinion is foremost my individual opinion, and my ability as individual has a natural limit. And in general it cannot be solved with merely a number of translator or such - even it would be a good start to get involved jawiki people into the broad activities of Wikimedia.

In my understanding, if the current situation continued, no one could think jawiki as integrated active part of this global activities and things got worse and worse, if we did not nothing. At this point the initiatives Cary raised would have its significance. Cheers, --Aphaia 20:51, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Aphaia, You might want to solve the issue arose by yourself on ja community(ies) at first... (BTW the person you talk with is Ks aka 98.)

There is one precept I learnt by the affair: the mission to communicate over vary communities should not be personalized. Fortunately, ja communitiy is one of the largest user base in East Asia. I would like to tell all people here that, despite language barrier (in both directions), not a few ja people are watching at those being done on this project :-).

I support Ks aka 98's 3rd option. ja:Wikipedia:井戸端/subj/Metaの日本語版向けプロジェクト is a tentative space on Village Pump of jaWP. --Hatukanezumi 08:04, 23 December 2007 (UTC) NB: I spent tens of munutes to write this post.

>if the current situation continued, no one could think jawiki as integrated active part of this global activities and things got worse and worse, if we did not nothing.

Unfortunately it is true. Due to three years of this person's wrongdoings, current situation of Japanese Wikipedia community is nearly at the bottom. That user continuously deprived users' freedom of speech by threatening contradictors and refusing to talk. As a result, we could not express the opinions that did not coincide with that user's, even if those are right, for fear of being threatened and/or being blocked by this user's "fellow" admin. I admit it was not acceptable behavior in global project not to stand up and express their opinion, but that was inevitable for us in order to continue our activities without fear of that user. Now that that tyrant, oppressive, and politics-oriented user was officially banned by this RfB, we finally gained our freedom and have just started to rebuild our community and project. That RfB was very the beginning of our rebuilding process. This process may take long, long time, so please, please do not disturb us. Thanks. Yassie 09:50, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

To Horlicks and Ks aka 98: Please keep the effort and continue the talk. In my personal thought, this talk will be very important in our rebuilding process to turn us into a globally accepted project. With my two cents. Thanks. Yassie 09:50, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Note that I talked of personalization as a issue of human resource, not as a issue of particular person (it would be solved personally). --Hatukanezumi 16:04, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for comments, guys. And sorr for my typo, Ks aka 98. I would like to reply about the issue you raised, however I would like to shorten it as possible as I can, since it is totally off topic here.

• It is your opinion that I arose it: between Miya and I it is solved. We keep in touch both online and off line. You would insist it unsolved. But it is not your business at all.
• I am saddened to see Yassie going to personal attack as well as on other places and also he confuse things with off topic. Bringing off topics may help anything in general.

As "not personalizing" - it is definitely the point. Shortage of human resources is a problem for Wikimedia / Japanese community for long years. Whenever I am back from my wiki break, I found several days, over one week, or sometimes weeks old unprocessed inquiries on OTRS/info-ja queue. I don't want to blame my colleagues (there are two other personels on that queue including one jawiki sysop) but low activity of the queue is remarkable and hindered the external people benefit Japanese Wikipedia. On the other hand, legal inquiries around Japanese Wikipedia tend not to report to the Foundation in time. Not criticizing, Japanese sysops tend to deal with things only on volunteer basis, and it took sometimes over a year but later the issue was solved in days with a contact of Foundation staff. So the current allocation and communications of the involved parties are not the best one, I presume. If we improve this kind of malfunction in communications, all the involved parties will be benefited. --Aphaia 03:22, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Personal attack, mmm... I'm just stating the fact. I call a spade a spade, for it is the word I live by. Aphaia, on the other hand, shuts out every single criticisms, even when the criticisms are appropriate and based on the fact, by tabbing them as "vandal", "personal attack", bruh, bruh, bruh... even on the comment right above. It is obviously against the spirit of WP:ATWV. Anyway, I just want Aphaia not to bother us, Japanese Wikipedia community, anymore. It is not the way a BANNED user is supposed to act, unless s/he makes the best effort to be accepted by our community and the ban is lifted. We are at very the beginning of rebuilding our project and community by ourselves. I believe malfunction in the communications will be solved someday in the process of rebuilding. In community, NOT Aphaia, we trust. Yassie 03:54, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

It would be solved personally, I wrote. Please let us freely talk with by ourselves, Aphaia, and please spend enough time to examine yourself. 「ふてぶてしい」って英語でなんて言うのかわからなかった。いまは、あなたが発言するとコミュニティ間の不信感を増す結果にしかならないとおもう。あなたはあなたの問題を正視すべきだとおもうし、そうしてくれるのを待っています。BTW would we go back to Horlicks and Ks aka 98's comments? --Hatukanezumi 13:48, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

NOW, we go back to the subject.

Jawp community seems closed. I think it is better to say "not active enough to communicate Meta, and projects outside jawp". Setting it aside, jawp community is not well opened naturally and spontaniously.

Horlicks raise his hand. It's good. Several translater's help make it possible to join to the discussion in Japanese. Several ambassador's appearance make it possible to mediate directly. But no other Ja users follow by now. There need to ask someone in jawp to help for a effort to change. So, I want to confirm what "translater" and "bridges" means and I explained the differences of skills to be wanted. Though I'm not active in meta and not good at English as you see, I think this project is important and I'm here to discuss for a while. I, Ks aka 98 will misunderstand some about wikimedia project. You can suggest my misunderstanding and I will try understanding it.--Ks aka 98 08:41, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Questions to the Outreach project members

Hi. Thanks for your concern. I wanted to know what exactly you would like to do with this project. Would you give us some ideas/ more explanations?

1. Is it your interest to learn why Wikimedia Japan chapter does not exist and is not seemingly even close to the launch?
2. Is it your interest to encourage Japanese Wikimedians to provide information for potential participants who are non-native spekers, on rules and conventions of Japanese Wikimedia projects? (I am thinking of something along the line of A guide to Japanese Wikipedia.)
3. Is it your interest to identify some bilingual contacts? (Well I assume that is the case, because the project page says so.) What is the contacts for, exactly? What are the qualifications you look for?
   1. Is it for asking some questions on what's going on at one or more of Japanese Wikimedia projects? (For example, asking about a background of some dispute, or if a user who was once active on a Japanese project and now active elsewhere is a troll, if certain spammer comes to Japanese project, etc.)
   2. Is it for asking some advice /opinions on some issues, plans, proposed policies, etc., that affect Japanese projects? (If some intervention by a Foundation staff is going to resolve a trouble or complicate the issue, how to best publicize Jimbo's visit to Japan, etc.)
   3. Is it for asking to perform some tasks, such as resolving complaints, or promulgating some message to various projects?
   4. Other than communication skills, would you look for trustworthiness, neutral point of view, extensive network with other Japanese Wikimedians, or some other attributes?

Thanks. And just for clarifications, this is just my own question, and I am not representing anyone or group, though I am hoping this will help the communication among the concerned parties. Or you might explain your interests in a wholly different way without answering the questions. That would be fine I suppose. (Certainly fine with me.)

Tomos 00:42, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.

1-4 Yes, yes yes and yes :) Cary Bass ^demandez 16:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your answers. You might have missed it, but there is a series of questions posted above by Ks aka 98. You might want to answer those, too, perhaps?

Tomos 20:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I found it difficult to understand the questions. Can you rephrase and/or summarize what you feel has not yet been answered? Cary Bass ^demandez 18:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Umm.. Okay, not much of a faithful translation, but here are some of the points and questions raised, as I perceived..

1. When you say "bridges" are you thinking of any of the following:
   1. someone willing to join meta to get involved in various discussions
   2. someone capable of having simple conversation, like answering a question on IRC
2. What are the skills that you expect from the "bridges" in general?
3. What are the roles of translators for this project?
4. Are you somehow thinking, as indicated in the meeting log, that Japanese community needs to change (like by getting some media coverage), although at the same time you feel that you don't know enough about the community? (No personal attack intended!)
5. Given your interest in changing the community, is it right to assume that we need to somehow let you understand ja community as it is, and then discuss if certain change is desirable or not?
6. To achieve that goal, do you think any of the three approaches as follows to be effective and important?
   1. Some quality ja wikimedian join meta to discuss issues.
   2. Translating large amount of Japanese texts into English, which might be fairly difficult.
   3. Have a place where ja community members can discuss on things and translate the results.

I am pretty sure that I am not getting the nuances of the above comments and questions. So do not expect precision in word choices when you answer. Hope it helps than do harm. Thanks!

Tomos 21:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is some background information as Tomos understood Ks aka 98's additional explanation right below (in Japanese).

The launch of this outreach project was reported on Japanese Wikipedia first on Dec 6, and some discussion followed at its Village Pump. Two weeks later, however, only Horlicks has expressed interest in becoming a bridge. Ks aka 98 sees that some Japanese Wikipedians are interested in this project, but there still aren't plenty of people who are willing and able to contribute to this project by gathering information on Japanese Wikipedia and explaining it in English.

Seeing this less-than-ideal he (Ks aka 98) wanted outreach project members to explain more about their initial thoughts and visions. In particular, what do you expect from "the bridges," one short-term, relatively clear goal the project seems to have. He also suggested three conceivable ways to pursue the goal of the outreach project without having a lot of bridge people. The three are listed in my post above as 6-1 to 6-3.

Tomos 19:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

早！　時間も経ったので、あらためて日本語で書き直してみました。ぼくの語学力の不足によって、面倒をおかけしてすみません。既にまとめていただいているので、投稿しないでおこうと思ったのですが、投稿意図や背景についてもまとめていますので、お役に立てればと残すことにしました。「井戸端での様子から、」の段落がいちおう主眼で、前後の段落、および最初の投稿の内容は、その背景となるものです。無理に訳出しなくてもよいと思いますが、必要なら使ってください。わかりにくいことがあれば、ご指摘下さい。

このプロジェクトについて、ウィキペディア日本語版でも「Wikipedia:お知らせ」「Wikipedia:井戸端/subj/Metaの日本語版向けプロジェクト」で告知があり、井戸端のほうで意見が交わされました。どのようなどういう人が求められているかという点について、利用者間で意見が食い違いました。また、ログには日本支部についての話題があり、ウィキペディア日本語版では、metaで日本語で行なわれていた支部の議論があったことから、支部を作ることについての認識の違いがある可能性が示唆されました。ページができたのが2007/11/28、ウィキペディア日本語版への最初の告知が2007/12/6、その後12/20までに、参加を表明したのはHorlicksさん一人でした（今も増えていません）。

井戸端での様子から、ウィキペディア日本語版の利用者の何人かは、このプロジェクトに関心を持っていると思います。しかし、残念ながら、ウィキペディア日本語の様子を把握し、英語で説明でき、このプロジェクトに貢献しようという人が、続々現れるということにはなっていません。そのような現実の中で、ウィキペディア日本語版のコミュニティは、このプロジェクトに関して何ができるかを考えるために、プロジェクトの立ち上げに際して考えたこと、思い描いたことについて、もう少し詳しい説明をしてほしい。

ぼくの最初の投稿は（18:16, 20 December 2007）、こうしたことを踏まえ、このプロジェクトで当面の目標として確認する対象となる「橋渡しをしようという意志を持つ人」を明らかにしようと意図して質問したものです。また、多くの参加者が得られないようなので、プロジェクトの目的を達成するために考えられるやり方を三つ検討しましたつもりのものでした。--Ks aka 98 11:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

フォローありがとうございます。 というか、早まってすみませんでした。。Ks aka 98さんの意見をうまく理解できている自信がありませんが、よかったら修正などお願いします。

何がしたいか不明な点があるというのは同感です。ただ、とりあえず何ができるかわからないしやってみようぐらいのつもりで始めたものだとしても不思議ではないような気もしますね。Tomos 19:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I have not yet responded as I am interested in some of the other participants of this project to join in the conversation and give their ideas. Cary Bass ^demandez 00:48, 14 January 2008 (UTC)