Requests for new languages/Wiktionary Cantonese

Cantonese Wiktionary

submitted	verification	final decision

	This proposal has been approved. The Board of Trustees and language committee have deemed that there is sufficient grounds and community to create the new language project. A committee member provided the following comment: Congratulations! See phabricator:T205546. Please continue to contribute at Incubator until the project is created. For LangCom: StevenJ81 (talk) 14:44, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:

What	Value	Example / Explanation

Proposal
Language code	yue (SIL, Glottolog)	A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name	Cantonese	Language name in English
Language name	粵文	Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item	Q9186 - item has currently the following values: English label: Cantonese native label (P1705): 粵語, 粵文 instance of (P31)/subclass of (P279): natural language, modern language / Yuehai Yue, Chinese Wikimedia language code (P424): zh-yue, yue writing system (P282): written Cantonese, Cantonese Braille, Chinese characters number of speakers, writers, or signers (P1098): 72,893,210	Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality	no indication	Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links		Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Site URL	yue.wiktionary.org	langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name	維基辭典	"Wiktionary" in your language
Project namespace	維基辭典	usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace	維基辭典討論	"Wiktionary talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads	no	Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons. If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin"). Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo	File:Wiktionary logo yue 1 noto pathed.svg	This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone	UTC	"Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces	索引 (Index), 索引討論 (Index_talk), 附錄 (Appendix), 附錄討論 (Appendix_talk)	For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings		Anything else that should be set
Once settings are finalized, a committee member will submit a Phabricator task requesting creation of the wiki. (This will include everything automatically, except the additional namespaces/settings.) After the task is created, it should be linked to in a comment under "final decision" above.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Proposal

Recently, I patrol some yue wikipedia article and found some dictionary articles. So, I suggest to create the yue Wiktionary. --Waihorace 00:32, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Arguments in favour

Support There are lots of speakers of the Cantonese language around the world. Hydriz 09:34, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support for there are already a few items in the Cantonese wikipedia which should belong to the Cantonese Wiktionary. Hillgentleman 15:49, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support there is a lot of Chinese slang and spoken words that cannot be found in the Chinese Wiktionary. Have been wishing for this for a LONG time.
Support With a rich inventory of idiomatic expressions and unique vocabularies, Cantonese deserves a Wiktionary. Wg. Cdr. Cédric, ECPP Wing 31, Violet Squadron (talk) 09:12, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support i am a speaker.DannyChan (talk) 09:31, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Differences in Mandarin- vs. Cantonese Vocabularies: Some Examples
Mandarin Word	Mandarin Pronunciation	Cantonese Counterpart	Cantonese Pronunciation	English
薪水	/ɕin˥ ʂuei˩˧/	人工	/jɐn˩ koŋ˥/	salary
土豆	/tʰu˩˧ tou˥˩/	薯仔	/sy˩ ʦɐi˩˥/	potato
們	/mɜn˩˥/	等/地	/tei˩/	(personal pronoun plural marker)

Conditional Support per Requests for new languages/Wikivoyage Cantonese. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:33, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I just absolutely Support to found the Wiktionary Cantonese. Because an army of Cantonese words CANNOT be translated into Mandarin and any other Chinese languages. Like of these at below:--CRCHF (talk) 07:01, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Differences in Mandarin- vs. Cantonese Vocabularies: Some Examples
Cantonese Counterpart	Cantonese Pronunciation	Mandarin Word	Mandarin Pronunciation	English
剝光豬	/mok˥ gong˥ zyu˩/	（很难表达含义）		hardcore, a people haven't worn any clothes at his body.
L6奶	/el˥ luk˩˥ na:i˩/	大姑妈（大概）	/sy˩ ʦɐi˩˥/	wife (a dialect for Cantonese in Maoming)
揸頸	/za:˥ gen˩/	緊張得喘不過氣來。	/tei˩/	choking, breathless (a dialect for Cantonese in Shaoguan)

@CRCHF: For "剝光豬", why not "裸体" in Mandarin (u said "hardcore")? Pst zh-yue:剝光豬 seems like a glossary of Xiangqi (Chinese chess). --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:58, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is the dialect for Cantonese in Guangzhou. There are plenty of cantonese words FROM the similiar appearances of above.--CRCHF (talk) 11:57, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely Support because it's a very important language which spoken in Hong Kong and southern china. But, i have a very imortant question. Which language code should this wiki used? "yue" (use the SIL code)? or "zh-yue" (just like Cantonese wikipedia)?--el caballero de los Leones (talk) 02:26, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@唐吉訶德的侍從:

Tracked in Phabricator:
Task T30441

You know. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 06:17, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I want to use "yue" this one. Because "yue" is an SIL code for Cantonese in all over the world.--CRCHF (talk) 11:57, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support -MacRusgail (talk) 16:50, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Active on Incubator with plenty of content. George.Edward.C (talk) 20:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support--Rehmat Aziz Chitrali 13:45, 12 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support Min Nan already has a Wiktionary so this is a no-brainer. Nibiko (talk) 01:47, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support I am an user of it in the Wikimedia Incubator. LC (talk) 14:28, 17 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support it is very active--Asdfugil (talk) 03:50, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Of course. For example, "海豚人" & "的確涼" this word CANNOT be comprehended with its meaning in Mandarin. Because these words can be found in Cantonese only. To every foreignners: PLEASE DO NOT BE BRAINWASHED WITH THE STANDARD CHINESE'S (MANDARIN) LANGUAGE SUPREMACY. --PQ77wd (talk) 05:32, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support --Assoc (talk) 02:39, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support I was just about to add a lot of Cantonese entries but found out that the Cantonese Wiktionary is still waiting for approval. I would not add the entries to the Chinese (Mandarin) Wiktionary because the titles are not Mandarin and I do not intend to write the explanations in Mandarin either. We, the Cantonese people, living in Kwangtung, Hong Kong, Macau, Kwangsi, Malaysia and all over the word, need this Cantonese Wiktionary. Roy17 (talk) 00:10, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support Cantonese is a rich language which deserves having a separate Wiktionary from Mandarin Chinese.--Hello903hello (talk) 14:30, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support 夢蝶葬花 @生涯不敗 06:56, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Arguments against

Oppose, build a stronger Chinese Wiktionary: Every variety can be incorporated into the Chinese Wiktionary. The English Wiktionary already includes tables with dialectal forms for many Chinese words. You can build on that by adding pronunciations from all over China. This is a dictionary, words are the focus, not texts. The only thing that would really change is the user interface. --Explosivo (talk) 18:52, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Explosivo:: You have been brainwashed. Do you understand the Mandarin Chinese's supremacy have designed to heightened our Cantonese? Explosivo, please DO NOT FORGET Guangzhou Television Cantonese controversy have broken out since Jul. 25th., 2010. GZNF.net have told the sense of crisis about the "土生捞仔" (English translation: invaded non-Cantonese local speakers. Deepness comprehension: The child(ren) which born in local area but spoken for non-local language (NEGATIVE EXAMPLE, CHINESE WORD WRITTEN FOR "我是广州人，不会讲粤语", English translation in photo: "I'm born in Guangzhou. But I can't speak Cantonese."). ) in Guangzhou from 2009 to 2016 ([1][2]). Don't forget. CANTONESE is the MOTHER TONGUE in Pearl River Delta.--PQ77wd (talk) 08:14, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Stop accusing people of being brainwashed, stop insulting people in general! This will not be tolerated! Please do not confuse Mandarin with Standard Chinese. Sichuan dialect is also Mandarin, but non-local people can't understand it. Every region, even every village has their own forms of speech, Cantonese is nothing special and due to colonial history, the situation is way better than e.g. Wu Chinese, which has more speakers, but we only see Cantonese speakers complaining. After all, it's all Chinese, there's no doubt. The path to a well-developped language includes standardisation. People using 边度 instead of 边道 and 俾 instead of 畀 is definitely a grave mistake. Chinese people need a standard language and the obvious choice is based on the Beijing variety pertaining to the Mandarin group, which has around 900 million speakers. That means these people already speak something close to standard Chinese. This is not a process native to China, nation states like Germany, France, Italy, Spain all have gone through this process. You can still added local readings and expression to the Chinese Wiktionary, there is no problem with that. --Explosivo (talk) 22:54, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Explosivo: This "standardisation" is unnecessary and it oppresses the Cantonese language. There is already a Wiktionary of another Chinese variant, Bân-lâm-gú, in existence. Cantonese has more active users and a larger community than the Min Nan language. That's why we deserve an independent Cantonese Wiktionary, which will let us include all Cantonese-specific vocabulary and compile the meanings of the words in our native Cantonese, instead of the foreign Mandarin. Roy17 (talk) 00:10, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@Roy17: Agree. In my opinion, it is necessary to keep the rich Cantonese language. Also, @Explosivo: Chinese people don't need a standard language, but they already have one (Mandarin). Many Cantonese speakers in Hong Kong have at least a basic understanding of Mandarin, and most speakers in Guangdong have no difficulties communicating in Mandarin. I don't disagree with the process of language unification in China, but at the same time we should preserve the traditional language of Cantonese, since we can learn more about the history of a place through its language. However, in reality, the Chinese government is gradually forcing a tradition to be eliminated. There must be a way to maintain the language and save it from dying, and the Internet is a good medium. Finally, in reply to Explosivo, I would like to point out that Cantonese is actually extremely different from Mandarin Chinese when spoken. They only share the same writing system, and are both tonal languages. Both are well developed, so there should be no reason to eliminate any of them. Therefore, both Wiktionaries should exist. --Hello903hello (talk) 14:30, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Min Nan project has nothing to do with preserving culture. It's not even written in Chinese characters but in Pe̍h-ōe-jī created by foreign missionaries and few people can actually read this transcription system. It's mostly written by Taiwanese people vying for independence and claiming there was such a thing as a "Taiwanese language". This term should be reserved for Taiwanese aborigines, not for something that's also spoken across the strait in Xiamen where they have a more suitable approach. I'm not against Cantonese, I've studied it myself. There is a linguistic concept called Abstandsprache and Cantonese is not very different. Grammatical differences are not that great and a general Chinese word is usually correct in Cantonese with the Cantonese pronunciation of the single Characters. It's definite one of the easier languages I've come across. Don't forget that Wiktionary is a dictionary. Arguments about oral mutual intelligibility are not a factor and people won't be writing extensive articles like on the Cantonese Wikipedia, a far better place for promotion. The only novelty would be replacing function words like 是/係. Moreover, Mandarin is not a standard, it's a dialect group. Beijing vernacular was chosen for standard Chinese after failed artificial attempts to combine elements from differnt dialects. Don't call it oppression. Mandarin dialects are affected as well. Nearly every Western country has gone through this process to the disadvantage of local speeches, but that doesn't mean local culture isn't still strong. PQ77wd explicits really immature behavior by expressing his anger towards me on a Cantonese talk page although I haven't said anything against Cantonese. This attitude is just rude. --Explosivo (talk) 16:18, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]