Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Neo

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Request for a new language edition: Wikipedia Neo

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submitted

verification

final decision

This proposal has been rejected. This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy based on the discussion on this page. A committee member provided the following comment: This appears to be an artificial language without an active users community. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Amire80 (talk) 2024-11-01 (UTC)

• The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
• The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
• The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:

What	Value	Example / Explanation

Proposal
Language code	neu (SIL, Glottolog)	A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name	Neo	Language name in English
Language name	neo	Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item	Q606917 - item has currently the following values: English label: Neo native label (P1705): instance of (P31)/subclass of (P279): compromise planned language, international auxiliary language, constructed language / Wikimedia language code (P424): writing system (P282): number of speakers, writers, or signers (P1098):	Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality	LTR	Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links		Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Site URL	neu.wikipedia.org	langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name		"Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace		usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace		"Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads	no	Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons. If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin"). Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo		This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone	Europe	"Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces		For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings		Anything else that should be set
Once settings are finalized, a committee member will submit a Phabricator task requesting creation of the wiki. (This will include everything automatically, except the additional namespaces/settings.) After the task is created, it should be linked to in a comment under "final decision" above.

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Proposal

The Neo language has an ISO 639-3 code: [1]. There is already a wiki in this language on Incubator 2.0 ([2]), so at the very beginning it could serve as a basis for the Wikipedia project (on CC-BY-SA license).

Voting

In favour

1. --Jon Gua (talk) 17:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

   @Jon Gua Why support? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 07:56, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

   A language with people interested in creating an encyclopedia and with a large dictionary. As we can see from Wikipedias written in auxlangs, users tend to constantly create new content, most of the times on a daily basis. Jon Gua (talk) 10:22, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

   @Jon Gua Then how do you explain two against rationales below, where both cited the non existent of speakers? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 08:26, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

2. It will be a valuable resource to members of the Neo community and learners of the language, and it will serve to preserve and document the language.—Sir Beluga (talk) 18:30, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
3. As an intermediate learner of Neo, I would look forward to contributing. Neo is a fully fleshed-out auxiliary language known for its brevity, and has a large dictionary. It should be possible for the Neo community to at least match the level of activity found in other small auxlang Wikipedias (such as Novial, Volapük). --SineLaude (talk) 18:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
4. I believe Neo Wikipedia will attract activity. Grigoriy Korotkih (talk) 14:39, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
5. I agree with the arguments presented above: Neo has a large vocabulary and should, with dedicated contributors, be able to maintain a similar level of activity as other auxlang projects here. Omnihom (talk) 18:25, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
6. This is well-known language with tutorials, dictionaries etc. Few years ago the Yahoo Group for Neo was very active. I think, that the Neo community needs some place to show its activity. Morozof
   1. Well-known language? I own and have read Lunatic Lovers of Language: Imaginary Languages and Their Inventors and In the Land of Invented Languages: Esperanto Rock Stars, Klingon Poets, Loglan Lovers, and the Mad Dreamers Who Tried to Build A Perfect Language, and don't recall any mention of Neo. It's no Novial or Volapük. I'm a little tired of "the [X] community needs some place to show its activity"; there are plenty of places around the web, and there's even a Miraheze wiki encyclopedia that you could be editing. You have places; you just want to be able to say "we have a Wikipedia".--Prosfilaes (talk) 15:41, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
7. Not without hesitation, though, also because we already have six other wikipedias in Euroclones. But on the other hand, if the criteria for inclusion are met and the project can prove its long-term viability in the Incubator, then I see no counterindications for creating it. IJzeren Jan (talk) 13:28, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Against

1. This is another long-dead interlang. Esperanto and Ido still have their speakers, and Interslavic and Lingua Franca Nova seem to have a current energy. Looking at w:en:Neo language, we see a link to a blog that hasn't posted in 12 years, and a a Miraheze encyclopedia with 41 articles; looking at Wikipedio:List d'artiklos, ke tot Wikipedios shur avi, someone made stubs for the first 7 articles and then quit. (Yes, there are a handful following; four country stubs and four continent stubs, for example.) This doesn't even strike me as marginally viable for a Wikipedia.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:18, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose Per Prosfilaes, no evidences of native speakers of Neo living, therefore it violates LPP Term III, those who so-called "learner of Neo", "trying to speak it", etc. are only making their lies, their propagandas. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:50, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
3. per user:Prosfilaes; runs afoul of the “no extinct languages” policy. Esperanto is literally the only fully artificial language that’s ever caught on at the level of an organic language. We should probably outright ban all new conlangs at this point. Dronebogus (talk) 11:38, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

For me, the main criterion for supporting a new Wikipedia project in a constructed language is viability, and frankly, in this case I have my doubts. There are quite a few long-dead auxlangs that every now and then find someone willing to revive it. I've seen that happening several times during the last 25 years: one or a few enthousiasts decide to revive a forgotten language, create some content in it, then lose interest and the project dies. This attempt to revive Neo does not look any more promising: ca. 40 edits in May after half a year of total inactivity. Let's face it: all Euroclones except Esperanto are either struggling or dead. Interlingua and Ido still manage to survive somehow, Interlingue to a lesser degree as well, Novial is a borderline case, and even Lingua Franca Nova seems to have lost much of its energy since its creator died.

Ten years ago, I was administrator of the Wikipedia in Novial for half a year. Not because I was a user or even a fan of that language, but because its condition was deplorable: it had been abandoned for years, and most of the 2700 "articles" were practically empty (just an image or a template), spam or written in some other language. Out of respect for Jespersen, I volunteered to clean up the mess, delete half of them, rework the main page and put the real articles on the foreground. At the time, a thought occurred to me: wouldn't it be better to open up the Novial Wikipedia for similar languages, too? Ultimately, nothing came of that, but now I think it might be worth revisiting.

So here's my idea: expand the Wikipedia in Novial with other auxlangs that are too small to have their own Wikipedia, like Idiom Neutral, Neo, Intal, Glosa, Adjuvilo, Mondial, Mundolinco, etc. The reasoning is simple: an encyclopedia with 50 articles is of no use, and for these minor auxlangs it is virtually impossible to become anything more than that. That does not mean that these 50 articles (I mean real articles and not the usual oneliners) are worthless, only that they are written in languages too small for a separate Wikipedia project. Besides, since all these Euroclones are essentially based on the same linguistic material and mutually intelligible, one might easily consider them dialects of the same language. Every page could carry a template that says which language it is and places it in a special category. Some Wikipedias already work like that, for example the Ligurian and Alemannic editions. It's even possible to have the same article in different languages. In my opinion, this solution would generate more activity and put an end to fruitless deletion discussions and hopeless requests for new projects. What do others think? @Valodnieks, @KardonaBoske? IJzeren Jan (talk) 20:42, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I would suggest to have a wikipedia (maybe not the Novial one, but a new one) for all those euroclones you mentioned, kind of euroclone.wikipedia.org or auxlang.wikipedia.org, something like that. A Wikipedia where all those language can have articles written in them like Neo, all Pan-Romance languages besides Interlingua, Interlingue and Novial. Jon Gua (talk) 11:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I did actually consider that as well (ial.wikipedia.org – the code 'ial' hasn't been taken yet), but that would imply creating a new Wikipedia, which I don't think is going to happen. My thought was based in the idea that sharing is caring, and the Wikipedia in Novial – the biggest of the small auxlangs – seemed like a good place for it. Which also has the advantage of there being some control over the process. The risk of such a new wiki would be that literally everyone could start creating articles in their own private conlang – including Idino or Romaklono. Besides, we already have six Wikipedias in Euroclones... IJzeren Jan (talk) 18:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Not invited but I think this is an excellent idea. However, I don't think the article banners are the cleanest way to go about it. I would instead use different namespaces for different languages, since little talk page action/other namespaces are used. It would thus be easy to track languages and activity, and have centralised control over wiki usage at a community page to request creation of a new namespace, so that the wiki doesn't get abused. Frzzl (talk) 18:51, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Also, this avoids having ugly parenthesis for the common occurrence that euroclones share words. Frzzl (talk) 18:55, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, what do you mean by "different namespaces"? I didn't understand that part, could you please put an example? Jon Gua (talk) 09:01, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

A namespace is a prefix before an article name, that helps to broadly categorise them according to purpose. For example, talk pages have the “Talk:” namespace. If we allowed more IALs on nov-wiki, we’d run into issues with conflicts between languages.

For example, (i think) the word for “person” is “persona” in both Latino sine flexione and in Interglossa. So, to have one article in each language, we need different article titles. This could be done with brackets e.g “Persona (Interglossa)”, but this creates problems with disambiguating; you may have articles with double brackets, which is ugly. I say it would be better to make the article “Interglossa:Persona” or “igs:Persona” and “LSF/lsf: Persona”, based on aesthetic preferences.

Wikipedia has statistics tools built in to track use of different namespaces: this would allow us to easily make sure the wiki isn’t cluttered with 1-person temporary conlangs making lots of stubs. Frzzl (talk) 11:45, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Also @Jon Gua: Do you have any evidences that there are living, native speakers of Neo? Without such evidences, I'm afraid that this request is already violating LPP§3? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 22:04, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

There is no need for native speakers regarding artificial languages according to the language proposal policy. Indeed, the proposal mentions:

The language of the proposal has a sufficient number of fluent users to form a viable contributor community and an audience for the content.

Jon Gua (talk) 05:50, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

@Jon Gua See the #Against section above, Prosfilaes provided evidences that Neo is already a dead language. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 22:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)