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The Levantine language has become the easiest and most powerful Arabic derived language. It is taught as well in some of some universities around the world such as the university of Cambridge and it is spoken by more than 20 million individual around the globe. Therefore it ought to be recognized as one of Wikipedia's languages. --PersonneSyrienne (talk) 23:59, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose All speakers of Levantine understand and speak Arabic as an official language. So I'm definitely against these projects.--Faisal talk15:47, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support The fact that there is a Wikipedia in Modern Standard Arabic doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a Wikipedia in any other contemporary variant of Arabic. --Cryptex (talk) 00:19, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support There's an ISO code and a strong community of speakers all around the world, it should have its own Wikipedia like any other language. A455bcd9 (talk) 08:13, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Although there's an ISO code, the actual Arabic speakers' communities around the real world doesn't really want to have separated dialects of Arabic to have Wikipedias. Am I wrong here? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:12, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And if the German speaking community had objected to the opening of nds projects? I don't know where else speakers of a language got to veto another language with an ISO code on the grounds it is a dialect.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:32, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I am a resident of the Levant, and I think that launching a new version of Wikipedia for the Levant is a bad thing! And something that will not have any benefit, especially since the dialects of the Levant are closer to the classical language!
Support All of the arguments against this, if even any are made instead of just declaring opposition, appear to be rooted in Pan-Arabism. They are predicated on the idea that Arabic is "one language" and any attempt to create Wikipedias based on regional languages (which they dismiss as "dialects") are spun as "dividing the Arab world." These same arguments are made whenever any proposal for a Wikipedia in an Arabic language besides Modern Standard Arabic is made. But we are not here to cater to nationalist pseudolinguistics. A speaker of Algerian Arabic will struggle to understand a speaker of Levantine Arabic without knowing Modern Standard Arabic. Arabic is not a single language but a macrolanguage, with dozens of distinct languages forming a continuum stretching from the coast of West Africa to the mountains of Central Asia. --Sailor Ceres (talk) 18:11, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is rude post-colonial propaganda. Arabic is the formal language in Algeria: newspaper, education, and TVs are all in Arabic. So how can you find an Algerian not familiar with Arabic? Not to mention that, historically, Algeria has been an Arabic-speaking state/nation, for the last 15 centuries, and that it is a member of the Arab league today.--Michel Bakni (talk) 21:25, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is the same argument used against Cornish, Sami, any number of Romance or Germanic languages that aren't standard French or Dutch or Italian or German, yet are in those countries. The fact that is part of the Arab league doesn't mean anything; all of Italy is part of Italy, but we still have Occitan, Venetian, Piedmontese, Lombard, Sicilian, Neapolitan and more, all closely related Romance languages of Italy. Imperial ambitions do not justify the suppression of local variations of the standard language that are themselves languages.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:45, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
These small languages have Wikipedias, only because there are enough reason to match the LPP§3, how do Arabic dialects match it? In your opinion we should deprecate the PCP because every coded languages are different, even Tagalog (tl) and Filipino (fil) and hence nobody should request closure? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:23, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
SIL says Latin split into 44 different languages, and Arabic into 30. You're telling me that Latin split into 44 different languages, and Arabic 2 (Arabic and Maltese). One of those arguments is more persuasive than the other.--Prosfilaes (talk) 19:24, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, not true. Occitane is older than modern French and Italian. Arabic variants are dialects and not separate languages, they do not have their own vocabularies or grammar, instead, it is differences in pronunciation or using of the words. The difference between Levantian Arabic and Egyptian Arabic is like the difference between British English and American English.--Michel Bakni (talk) 10:09, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
All Romance languages date back to the Roman empire; people in France have been speaking their own Latin dialects for 2000 years, just like in Italy. w:Levantine Arabic seems to dismiss your claim about vocabularies; "In the vocabulary of five-year-old native Palestinians: 40% of the words are not present in MSA" is cited.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:25, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Any language must have rules. Who talks once about such rules? Where are this language grammar? Any Linguistic? Any book? While nobody in the region (Levant) knows himself more than "talks Arabic" except some minorities such as Kurd, Armen.. To that point, how come a Syrian man, Arabic, Kurdish, Arminian or Assyrian daily communicates with someone Egyptian or Algerian in their mutual job? This is only by means of Arabic, the Syrian Arabic dialect, which is understood by the inhabitants all over the MENA. Furthermore, obviously most of the opponents are from the Levant, which means the most relevant to what so called "Levantine language". (Damascus-Syria) أسامةالفاروسي (talk) 10:03, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, This dialect has no rules, and it uses the rules of the Arabic language, the only difference is that the dialect changes the pronunciation of some words! أحمد الغرباوي (talk) 13:01, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment — All languages have rules. Levantine Arabic definitely has its own rules and its own words, sometimes the same as MSA, sometimes not. FunLater (talk) 22:57, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The day we see British, American, Australian, and Canadian English Wikipedias, or Parisien and Quebecois French Wikipedias, is a day we would start thinking about having Shami, Masri, Djezi, Iraqi, ...Wikipedias. Ahmed M Farrag (talk) 20:04, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You can't tell what English variant I'm writing in, but if I were writing this in Arabic, you'd definitely be able to tell if I'm writing in Modern Standard Arabic or Levantine Arabic. FunLater (talk) 00:38, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you start writing how you pronounce, I would. Wader is American, while wo'aa is British, for instance. Moreover, if you write "sidewalk" rather than "pavement" or "color" instead of "colour", I'd start forming an idea where you come from. Those are not two different languages, rather two dialects of the same language. Cheers Ahmed M Farrag (talk) 15:16, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, here is just one of the reliable sources that suggest otherwise: "Like other Arabic literature, children’s books in the Arab world are written almost exclusively in fusHa Arabic (Modern Standard Arabic), the language that the child will only master after several years of schooling." It requires multiple years of schooling in an Arabic Language school for a native Levantine Arabic speaker to learn MSA, which is the language of current Arabic Wikipedia. However, that person will be able to read, (or listen, for narrated articles) the Levantine Arabic Wikipedia immediately, without needing to go to school for multiple years. Please let us not make the assumption that everyone will have access to the same kind of education. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 03:22, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're proving my point. All formal education is in Arabic, all news casts are in Arabic, all religious sermons and political speeches are in Arabic, the vast majority of printed literature is in Arabic. What you're saying is like saying, hey Japanese kids don't know many Kanjis until they're in 5th grade, so lets make a Wikipedia in Hiragana! or that African-American kids are more familiar with their vernacular, so let's make an African-American Vernacular Wikipedia! Until you bring me an actual encyclopedia written in a dialect like Shami, for instance, I won't be convinced of the need for an online one. Ahmed M Farrag (talk) 15:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion was around whether the languages were distinct enough to warrant separate Wikipedia editions. An Irish English-speaking parent can pick up any American English children’s book and read it to their child without requiring translation. However, the same cannot be said for a Levantine Arabic-speaking parent reading a book written in Modern Standard Arabic, unless the child has undergone specialized training in this language, as the referenced article suggests. There are many Levantine Arabic speakers who have not had the opportunity to receive training in an Arabic-speaking country. As a result, they can understand Levantine Arabic but not Modern Standard Arabic. Regarding your last point: while I agree that Levantine Arabic does not currently have a very strong written tradition, there have been numerous examples of languages that were initially considered "vernacular" but eventually gained the status of a written language. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 03:16, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While I do acknowledge the problem of Arabs raised in diaspora being unable to understand Arabic, but this actually goes all the way to include even written Arabic in a Shami dialect. This is remedied by learning the language; otherwise you would have to use Latin letters to address that minute group of people. Inventing a language out of a dialect will, sadly, not solve that particular problem. Just as a Japanese born in Egypt who cannot read Kanji does not warrant a Hiragana Wikipedia. They just should learn the language. Ahmed M Farrag (talk) 05:00, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm trying to point out that the vast majority of written literature, including important literary works like encyclopedias, are written in Arabic. This is the nature and the status quo. Maybe this could change in few hundred years, who knows. But for the time being, Arabic, like English, Spanish, French, etc, is the main language, and its dialects are rarely used in print works. Ahmed M Farrag (talk) 01:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And yet we have a Scots Wikipedia, and many Wikipedias for Romance languages spoken in France, Spain and Italy that aren't French, Spanish and Italian.--Prosfilaes (talk) 12:33, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you produce any volume of written literature, outside of chat rooms and web forums, written in Shami? If I bring you a couple of newspaper articles, one written by an Egyptian and the other by a Shami, can you tell any difference? Instead of chasing linguistic fantasies, I wish we confine our scope to reality. Arabic is the language Arabs use to communicate their serious knowledge in writing. Ahmed M Farrag (talk) 15:28, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to change the scope of Wikimedia, I don't think the place is on this one proposal. Every single new Wikipedia in Requests for new languages marked as "Verified as eligible" is similar; minimal written literature, and when the speakers want to communicate in writing, they use a different language. If people want to communicate in writing in Cameroon, they use English or French, not Ewondo. If Sylheti speakers want to communicate in writing, they use Bengali or English. We could stop any new Wikipedia from opening and wouldn't prohibit one user from writing in the language they would use to communicate serious knowledge in writing.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:53, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I said before, and find I have to reiterate, Arabs, including Shamis, use written Arabic to communicate serious knowledge. Yes, they use their dialect in written form to chat and tell jokes, but they write Arabic to communicate knowledge. Moreover, Shami is *not* a different language from Arabic, it's a dialect, like the African-American Vernacular is to English.Now if you would like to change the scope of Wikipedia from being an encyclopedia of knowledge to a Wikicomedia of jokes in African-American-like Vernacular, it certainly sounds fun, but way out of Wikipedia's scope. Ahmed M Farrag (talk) 13:48, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Arabs use written Arabic to communicate serious knowledge. And as I said, the speakers of every language that's trying to open a new Wikipedia use a different language to communicate serious knowledge. If you want to stop the creation of all new Wikipedias, this is not the place to make that argument. If you don't, that argument is irrelevant.--Prosfilaes (talk) 16:03, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Classifying a "dialect" and a "language" is arbitrary. What matters is mutual intelligibility, which Shami and MSA sadly don't have. And I, a native speaker, want to write in what I speak natively. Who are you to oppose that?
And regarding the "joke" bit, are you joking? If a sister wants to tell her brother that their father is dying, through text, will she suddenly text in a language she never speaks? Or are these messages jokes?
I clearly can see you're not native to the region. Texting (chatting) is different from serious knowledge. If instead of texting her brother she's writing a Chemistry book, she'd write it in Arabic. Let's go with texting for a second; said sister may text "أبوي مات، ما بعرف كيف لكن فجأة لاقيته ما بيرد" In Arabic, same text would go: "أبي مات، ما أعرف كيف لكن فجأة لقيته ما يرد". Can you see that there's almost no difference? The difference is merely dialectical. And this is in chatting, let alone a serious article.I'll try to break it down to you and the non-Arab natives with an example in English. This is the lead of the WP article on Egypt: Egypt (Arabic: مصر Miṣr [mesˁr], Egyptian Arabic pronunciation: [mɑsˤr]), officially the Arab Republic of Egypt, is a transcontinental country spanning the northeast corner of Africa and the Sinai Peninsula in the southwest corner of Asia. It is bordered by the Mediterranean Sea to the north, the Gaza Strip of Palestine and Israel to the northeast, the Red Sea to the east, Sudan to the south, and Libya to the west. The Gulf of Aqaba in the northeast separates Egypt from Jordan and Saudi Arabia. Cairo is the capital and largest city of Egypt, while Alexandria, the second-largest city, is an important industrial and tourist hub at the Mediterranean coast.[21] At approximately 100 million inhabitants, Egypt is the 14th-most populated country in the world, and the third-most populated in Africa, behind Nigeria and Ethiopia. This is the same in an African-American vernacular (thanks to ChatGPT): Yo, peep game: Egypt, they be callin' it "Miṣr" in Arabic, is straight-up holdin' it down in the northeast corner of Africa, and part of the Sinai Peninsula in Asia's southwest corner. This spot is legit, man, known as the Arab Republic of Egypt. Lemme lay it out for ya: it's got the Mediterranean Sea coolin' on its north side, Gaza Strip and Israel doin' they thang to the northeast, Red Sea holdin' it down to the east, Sudan keepin' it real to the south, and Libya vibin' to the west. Plus, you got the Gulf of Aqaba in the northeast, makin' a gap between Egypt and Jordan and Saudi Arabia. Cairo's where the party's jumpin', the capital and the biggest city, but don't snooze on Alexandria, comin' in hot as the second-largest city, servin' up that industrial and tourist scene right by the Mediterranean coast. With 'bout a hundred million folks callin' it home, Egypt's sittin' pretty as the 14th most populated country worldwide, holdin' it down as Africa's third most populated, after Nigeria and Ethiopia.Now tell me if you think African-American is a whole different language that merit an independent Wikipedia. Can you see the difference between written English and spoken English? Natives speak a dialect called Shami Arabic and write written formal Arabic to communicate serious knowledge. Ahmed M Farrag (talk) 14:43, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And regarding your funny statement that Arabic is dead, take a look at this figure which shows Arabic is thriving even in places were the mistake of making a WP for a dialect of Arabic has been made.
I never said Arabic is dead. I said MSA is dead, which is true and isn't funny.
Your sample text message is cherry-picked, unnatural, and grammatically questionable, using words that are rarely used in MSA and Levantine. You don't even speak Levantine.
From Al Khaen (first to pop up in the "free on Shahid" section), first season, first episode, first scene, translated by someone who actually speaks both languages. Shahid lists the audio as "Arabic" and the subtitles as "Arabic", yet...
Audio 1 (Shami):
يا الله، مش معقول شو حلوين هالوردات
Subtitles 1 (MSA):
لا يُعقل مدى جمال هذا الورد
---
Audio 2:
ما عم تشبع عيني منون
Subtitles 2:
لا تمل عيني من النظر إليه
---
Audio 3:
قال بقولو الورد الأبيض بفرق، بس أنا ما بصدق هالحكي
Subtitles 3:
يُقال أن الورد الأبيض يسبب الفراق، لكنني لا أصدق هذا الكلام
---
Audio 4:
صراحة إنتو كوپل پارفى
Subtitles 4:
بصراحة، أنتما ثنائي مثالي
---
Audio 5:
الله يخليكن لبعض
Subtitles 5:
أتمنى أن تدوم العلاقة بينكما
---
Audio 6:
مرسي
Subtitles 6:
شركرًا لك
---
Audio 7:
شو الي بضحك
Subtitles 7:
ما المضحك في الأمر؟
---
Audio 8:
ضحكينا معك
Subtitles 8:
أخبرينا لنضحك معك
---
Audio 9: (that's her name; same in all languages)
أسيل
Subtitles 9:
أسيل
---
Audio 10:
سوري بعتذر
Subtitles 10:
أنا أعتذر
MSA and Levantine are not mutually intelligible, like it or not. British English isn't "translated" to English in subtitles, because British English is English. German, however, is translated to English, because German isn't English, despite both being Germanic.
"If she's writing a [c]hemistry book, she'd write it in [MSA]". And?
You're saying Arabic and Shami Arabic are not mutually intelligible, and while you're giving examples of spoken Arabic, you would still fail to produce a movie in spoken Fusha or pure Arabic that has subtitles in Shami for Shamis to understand it. This notion is quite funny as Shamis listen to Arabic *everyday* in news casts and talk shows . Now back to written Arabic, I asked a question, will you be able to tell any difference between a newspaper article written by an Egyptian and a Shami? the answer is no of course.The Arabic "translations" are cherry-picked for the examples you gave. Here are my version: Audio 1 (Shami): يا الله، مش معقول شو حلوين هالوردات Subtitles 1 (MSA): يا الله غير معقول مدى حلاوة هذه الوردات --- Audio 2: ما عم تشبع عيني منون Subtitles 2: لا تشبع عيني منهن --- Audio 3: قال بقولو الورد الأبيض بفرق، بس أنا ما بصدق هالحكي Subtitles 3: قال يُقال أن الورد الأبيض يفرق، لكن أنا ما أصدق هذا الحكي --- Audio 4: صراحة إنتو كوپل پارفى Subtitles 4: صراحة، أنتما زوج مثال --- Audio 5: الله يخليكن لبعض Subtitles 5: الله يبقيكما لبعضكما --- Audio 6: مرسي Subtitles 6: شركرًا --- Audio 7: شو الي بضحك Subtitles 7: ماذا الذي يُضحك --- Audio 8: ضحكينا معك Subtitles 8: ضحكينا معك --- Audio 9: (that's her name; same in all languages) أسيل Subtitles 9: أسيل --- Audio 10: سوري بعتذر Subtitles 10: آسف أعتذرAnd as you see, even in these chat-like statements of spoken Arabic, it still matches almost identically, apart from words taken from English or French. Now the question again is, would the Shami Wikipedia be composed of chats? if it the answer is no, it would communicate serious knowledge, then *native Arabs* use *Arabic* to communicate serious knowledge.And about your funny remark that I don't speak Levantine, as if it's a language, this shows a complete disconnect with the region. My dear stranger of the Arab region and culture, the singers in our region switch dialects in their songs like they change outfits. Asala, a famous Syrian singer, sings in Egyptian and in Khaleeji all the time. Saber Alroubai, Tunisian, sings in Egyptian as well. Nancy Ajram sings in Egyptian. Angham, an Egyptian, sings in Khaleeji. Taym, a Syrian actor, played the role of King Farouk in an Egyptian production, all in the Egyptian dialect. And they all do such a good job that you can't tell where they originally come from. And this is, again, in spoken Arabic. So please stop these linguistic delusions based in fantasy land far from the reality we live in.Cheers, Ahmed M Farrag (talk) 18:30, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ahmed M Farrag: Regarding your question "will you be able to tell any difference between a newspaper article written by an Egyptian and a Shami?" If they write in the corresponding languages but not in Modern Standard Arabic, then the answer is a clear yes, because Shami and Egyptian Arabic are distinct languages, and they are not mutually intelligible, according to all language authorities. Here in the Flores 200 project, you can see newspaper articles translated into both languages. Please note that there is only one English here, but multiple Arabic languages, including Modern Standard Arabic, Egyptian Arabic and Levantine Arabic (Shami). You can see the translated newspaper articles are quite different. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 22:16, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since you're giving such an emphatic yes for an answer, could you please provide us with a link to one newspaper that has its news in the Shami Arabic dialect and not in Arabic? Regarding the dataset published by social-media giant Facebook that you provided, thanks for giving me a good chuckle. Have you even read its data card to learn where it is collected from? These are translated sentences from English Wikinews, Wikivoyage and another wiki. These are not newspaper articles, these are sentences, a sentence from each wiki page, pronounced in the Levantine Arabic dialect. Here's the first out of the 997 sentences in the dev set. "أعلن علما من كلية الطب بجامعة ستانفورد يوم التنين عن اختراع أداة تشخيصية جديدة فيها تفرز الخلايا حسب النوع: شريحة زغيرة قابلة للطباعة ممكن تصنيعها باستخدام طابعات نموذجية نافثة للحبر مقابل سنت أمريكي واحد تقريباً لكل منها." which in proper Arabic is: أعلن علماء من كلية الطب بجامعة ستانفورد يوم الاثنين عن اختراع أداة تشخيصية جديدة فيها تفرز الخلايا حسب النوع: شريحة صغيرة قابلة للطباعة ممكن تصنيعها باستخدام طابعات نموذجية نافثة للحبر مقابل سنت أمريكي واحد تقريباً لكل منها.Again, almost identical.And please notice that it has Egyptian Arabic and Levantine Arabic, not Egyptian and Levantinian as these are dialects not languages. And as a fun fact for you, if you go to Egypt and say the Egyptian Language, they will think you're talking about Coptic, not the dialect.I showed that they're mutually intelligible, and I'll add to the piling evidence, if you go into any live feeds with guests from all over the Arab world, everyone speaks in their dialect and all of them understand each other. Of course, I keep engage in this thread and provide all these piling pieces of evidence for your sake, since you have no connection to the region and, I hope, are trying to understand. Otherwise, it's quite clear from all the participants here that this fantasy-land proposal is heavily opposed.Cheers, Ahmed M Farrag (talk) 01:19, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ahmed M Farrag Okay, I don't think there is any point in continuing the discussion here, because it is not us, but the external linguistic authorities that determine whether two languages are distinct or mutually intelligible. If you have time, I suggest you write up a request to the ISO 639-3 committee to combine the language codes arb (Standard Arabic) and apc (Levantine Arabic) into one. Here is a successful example that could help you, which was written to unify North Levantine Arabic (apc) and South Levantine Arabic (ajp) under a single code. Similarly, if you succeed in getting arb and apc unified under a single code, I believe the Wikimedia Foundation language committee will respect the decision and kill this project. Otherwise, this project will move on, just like the current Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia and the Moroccan Wikipedia, as long as there are people interested in contributing. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 02:17, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind there to be a code to identify different dialects of Arabic, like en-GB for British English or en-US for American, it could be useful. I just oppose having a Wikipedia, that communicates knowledge in writing, in a dialect that the natives *never* use to communicate serious knowledge. This mistake happened before, as I pointed out above, and it's evident that Arabic is the Wikipedia being used, not the linguistic fantasy variants.Cheers, Ahmed M Farrag (talk) 02:30, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your suggestion to unify Arabic dialects ISO codes like in English is certainly viable. I'll try to discuss it in our next WikiArabia (yes, Wikimedians from all over the Arab world meeting, talking and understanding each others). This, of course, has no bearing on my aforementioned arguments and unanswered challenges regarding the viability of a dialectical Shami Wikipedia.Cheers, Ahmed M Farrag (talk) 04:29, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps we can get one essay on the subject from the anti-new Arabic Wikipedias group instead of the same interminable arguing on every request for a new Wikipedia. (Preferably addressing the fact that the List_of_Wikipedias includes many Wikipedias in languages that are rarely used in professional life, like Eastern and Western Mari, Sardinian, Manx, etc.)--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:16, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just a quick correction; this group you're referring to is called Arab Wikimedians, and we span the entirety of the Arab world. In some ways, it's a unique part of the world, different from what you might be used to elsewhere. I hope one of my colleagues could find the time to write such an educational essay to our non-Arab friends. But I hope, in the meantime, the arguments made here and elsewhere would suffice. Cheers, Ahmed M Farrag (talk) 03:23, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Shami (Levantine Arabic) is very different from Modern Standard Arabic. People who know one don't automatically know the other. FunLater (talk) 00:21, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support: Over 40 million people speak Levantine Arabic as their native language. However, existing Wikipedia editions are not readily accessible to these people unless they have undergone training in other Arabic variants, such as Modern Standard Arabic. Opposing this Wikipedia edition with arguments like "let them learn Modern Standard Arabic" contradicts the fundamental principles defended by the Wikimedia Foundation. -TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 03:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A typical Levantine kid learns Arabic in school, and thus reads and contributes to existing Arabic Wikipedia. Not sure what your argument here is. Do you want to make an audible Wikipedia for children who haven't yet learned to read and write? Ahmed M Farrag (talk) 20:28, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Our goal is not to create a children's encyclopedia, an audio-only encyclopedia or a simplified encyclopedia: nobody proposed those. Instead, we aim to create a Wikipedia in Levantine Arabic. To reiterate: Levantine Arabic and Modern Standard Arabic are two distinct languages that are not mutually intelligible. Wikipedia is not for the typical person, Wikipedia is for everyone. Hence an argument like "a typical native Levantine Arabic speaker will know MSA anyway" is not valid. Many Levantine Arabic speakers do not speak MSA for various reasons, and even if they did, they have a right to consume and contribute to Wikipedia content in their language of choice. Whether or not there will be spoken articles like in the English Wikipedia, or whether there will be support for multiple writing systems, will need separate discussions. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 22:13, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You say "Many Levantine Arabic speakers do not speak MSA ". While an idea of a speaking encyclopedia is intriguing, this proposal here is for a written encyclopedia. And as far as I know, and please correct me if I'm wrong, outside chat rooms and web forums, Shamis write Arabic. The vast majority of written books and literature is in Arabic. All newspapers and magazines are in Arabic. This is how knowledge is actively being expressed and communicated. Having a toy WP in a language no one writes to express knowledge is a fun imaginary thought experiment, but it does not relate to reality, which, I hope, is our scope here. Ahmed M Farrag (talk) 01:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose: my opposition to this project is not ideological as some of the proponents seem to imply, but more of a practical one. The distinction between language and dialect is really a political one. Under different circumstances, I don't see why "Levantine" would not be considered its own language. MSA has been codified as the en: standard language of the countries of the Levant. There is no such thing as a Levantine language (or dialect), but rather a continuum of dialects across the Levant. There is no agreed upon orthography or pronunciation or even terminology, even within the same country. Creating a "Modern Standard Levantine" language is beyond the scope of Wikipedia, as it would require quite a bit of original research. While there have been some unsuccessful efforts to codify the Lebanese language (usually for isolationist or ideological reasons, en:Said Akl for instance), I know of no serious talk of a "Levantine language". I would argue that the discrepancies between Palestinian (Jerusalemite) and Lebanese (Beiruti) dialects are distinct enough such that a Levantine Wikipedia would have to pick one or the other (or any of the hundreds of other varieties). I would also argue that it is more likely for a Palestinian to understand a text written in MSA than one written in a spoken Lebanese dialect and vice versa. While I appreciate the enthusiasm of a few fellow Wikimedians in creating a new language edition of Wikipedia, as a native speaker of a Levantine variety of Arabic, I notice that of the very few enthusiasts only one is a native speaker of a Levantine variety. Other enthusiasts for such a project include ideologically driven non-Arabic speakers. To be viable, such a project would need many many more volunteers with actual knowledge of the language and its different varieties. Otherwise, the fiasco that happened with the en:Scots Wikipedia (a language with official recognition and bodies promoting it) is very likely to happen at a much larger scale. --Fjmustak (talk) 18:00, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I'm one of the editors at the Levantine Arabic wiki. The translation is almost (94%) complete for the most-important messages. Completing them is simple, but the problem is numbers and plurals:
For "zero keyboards": ولا كيبورد
For one: كيبورد واحد
For two: كيبوردين
For three: تلات كيبوردات
For eleven: حدعشر كيبورد
The problem is at numbers like 101 and 99,101 (ending with 01 and beyond 100).
It may not be a problem at small numbers
101
"مية وكيبورد"
But we can't write the whole thing for big numbers, like 1,101,101.
I think the singular form should be used, but I'm looking for consensus. Translating the most-important messages is required for the wiki to be aproved. Thanks. —FunLater (talk)
Strong support: Over 40 million people speak Levantine Arabic as their native language. However, existing Wikipedia editions are not readily accessible to these people unless they have undergone training in other Arabic variants, such as Modern Standard Arabic. Opposing this Wikipedia edition with arguments like "let them learn Modern Standard Arabic" contradicts the fundamental principles defended by the Wikimedia Foundation. -TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 03:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
Strong oppose: my opposition to this project is not ideological as some of the proponents seem to imply, but more of a practical one. The distinction between language and dialect is really a political one. Under different circumstances, I don't see why "Levantine" would not be considered its own language. MSA has been codified as the en: standard language of the countries of the Levant. There is no such thing as a Levantine language (or dialect), but rather a continuum of dialects across the Levant. There is no agreed upon orthography or pronunciation or even terminology, even within the same country. Creating a "Modern Standard Levantine" language is beyond the scope of Wikipedia, as it would require quite a bit of original research. While there have been some unsuccessful efforts to codify the Lebanese language (usually for isolationist or ideological reasons, en:Said Akl for instance), I know of no serious talk of a "Levantine language". I would argue that the discrepancies between Palestinian (Jerusalemite) and Lebanese (Beiruti) dialects are distinct enough such that a Levantine Wikipedia would have to pick one or the other (or any of the hundreds of other varieties). I would also argue that it is more likely for a Palestinian to understand a text written in MSA than one written in a spoken Lebanese dialect and vice versa. While I appreciate the enthusiasm of a few fellow Wikimedians in creating a new language edition of Wikipedia, as a native speaker of a Levantine variety of Arabic, I notice that of the very few enthusiasts only one is a native speaker of a Levantine variety. Other enthusiasts for such a project include ideologically driven non-Arabic speakers. To be viable, such a project would need many many more volunteers with actual knowledge of the language and its different varieties. Otherwise, the fiasco that happened with the en:Scots Wikipedia (a language with official recognition and bodies promoting it) is very likely to happen at a much larger scale. --Fjmustak (talk) 18:00, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
