[#wikinews 23:02] JOIN: wikinews_log
[#wikinews 23:02] JOIN: carlb
[#wikinews 23:02] <Amgine> <sly look> I saw Wikipedia found them and used them eventually?
[#wikinews 23:02] JOIN: weaverluke
[#wikinews 23:03] JOIN: RMacK
[#wikinews 23:03] <jibot> RMacK is sometimes a slightly devil's advocate and quite good at it
[#wikinews 23:03] JOIN: SonicR
[#wikinews 23:03] <Xirzon> OK, the live log is now set up for any latecomers
[#wikinews 23:04] <Xirzon> good morning/day/evening/night everyone
[#wikinews 23:04] JOIN: godsdog
[#wikinews 23:04] <jibot> godsdog is Mitch Ratcliffe
[#wikinews 23:04] <Xirzon> or "good timezone", as Amgine would say
[#wikinews 23:04] <Amgine> <grin>
[#wikinews 23:04] <Xirzon> welcome to this first open Wikinews Chat, which will discuss the topic of how Wikinews can better interact with the blogging community.
[#wikinews 23:05] <Xirzon> This chat is completely open, so you can always interrupt and ask questions. But we'll have special breaks for open discussion as well.
[#wikinews 23:05] JOIN: BesigedB
[#wikinews 23:05] JOIN: Sollog
[#wikinews 23:05] JOIN: jkbaumga
[#wikinews 23:05] <isen> yo godsdawg
[#wikinews 23:05] <Xirzon> Should the noise level get too high, we'll make the channel moderated, but I don't believe that will be necessary.
[#wikinews 23:06] <BesigedB> that's a magical logging script
[#wikinews 23:06] <Xirzon> So, welcome everyone. Let me give you a brief overview of what's been happening on Wikinews in the last couple of months.
[#wikinews 23:06] JOIN: SonicR
[#wikinews 23:07] <Xirzon> Wikinews is now an official project of the Wikimedia Foundation, along with Wikipedia, Wikibooks, Wiktionary, Wikiquote, Wikisource, and the Wikimedia Commons (that's a mouthful!)
[#wikinews 23:07] <Sollog> which means it's run by a pornographer?
[#wikinews 23:07] <Xirzon> It exists in English, German, French, Swedish, Spanish, and Dutch.
[#wikinews 23:07] MODE: +b *!*@*.254.204.68.cfl.rr.com by: Xirzon
[#wikinews 23:07] KICK: Xirzon: Sollog (Xirzon)
[#wikinews 23:07] JOIN: mxn1
[#wikinews 23:08] <Xirzon> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sollog and associated pages if you want to know what that was about :)
[#wikinews 23:08] <Dan100> in case you've been living under a rock ;)
[#wikinews 23:08] Action: *riorio smiles at Xirzon
[#wikinews 23:08] <jill^crux> hey, that was a religious hate crime ;)
[#wikinews 23:08] <Xirzon> The Swedish, Dutch, French and Spanish editions were just launched a few days ago
[#wikinews 23:09] JOIN: skyfaller
[#wikinews 23:09] <Xirzon> And naturally it will take a while to build a community, policies, etc.
[#wikinews 23:09] <jwales> I didn't know he knew how to use irc. That could start to be fun.
[#wikinews 23:09] <Xirzon> The English and German ones are better examples of what Wikinews works like in practice.
[#wikinews 23:09] JOIN: AngryParsley
[#wikinews 23:10] <Xirzon> Let me give you a few examples of Wikinews articles which we've had in the last few weeks.
[#wikinews 23:10] JOIN: elian
[#wikinews 23:10] <Xirzon> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Unrest_in_Belize
[#wikinews 23:10] <Xirzon> This was our first foray into original reporting. A Wikipedia user, Belizian, managed to scoop the mainstream media by several hours.
[#wikinews 23:11] <Xirzon> Another example of original reporting by "Wikinewsies", as we call ourselves (seriously! ;), was http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Iraqi_elections_kept_low-key%2C_but_secure%2C_in_Paris
[#wikinews 23:11] JOIN: zephyr1
[#wikinews 23:12] <Xirzon> This one was written by Submarine. He went out and observed how the Iraqi elections were handled in Paris (they had polling stations for expats in 14 countries)
[#wikinews 23:12] JOIN: Ryo_
[#wikinews 23:12] <Xirzon> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Bucharest_to_host_its_first_ever_CowParade
[#wikinews 23:12] <Xirzon> This is an example of how local Wikinews reporting can get :)
[#wikinews 23:12] <Xirzon> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Capture_of_FARC_member_creates_crisis_between_Venezuela_and_Colombia
[#wikinews 23:12] <Xirzon> And this is an example of how in-depth it can be.
[#wikinews 23:13] JOIN: alevin
[#wikinews 23:13] <Xirzon> So, it took us some time, but now we've found a rhythm, and in the English and German version, we're regularly publishing stories which, I believe, are of quite reasonable quality.
[#wikinews 23:13] <Xirzon> All of the material is original, though most is based entirely on outside reporting.
[#wikinews 23:13] JOIN: KevinMarks
[#wikinews 23:14] <Xirzon> The editorial process is very simple - you write a story and other people edit it. When we think it is ready, we put it in the appropriate categories.
[#wikinews 23:14] <Xirzon> If you're not familiar with wikis, the Wikipedia article gives a good overview:
[#wikinews 23:14] <JoiIto> who is the "we"?
[#wikinews 23:14] <RMacK> question: are there plans for RSS feeds of wikinews stories?
[#wikinews 23:14] <Xirzon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki
[#wikinews 23:14] <jwales> RMack: We strongly desire it, but it's a technical issue to develop it.
[#wikinews 23:14] <Amgine> The RSS feed system currently in place covers the entire website.
[#wikinews 23:15] <Xirzon> JoiIto: Currently there are 1399 registered users on the English Wikinews.
[#wikinews 23:15] <IlyaHaykinson> Joi: the "we" is you and the other users of course :)
[#wikinews 23:15] <Xirzon> Of those, only a relatively small number are actively writing stories.
[#wikinews 23:15] JOIN: dori
[#wikinews 23:15] <SonicR> "we" means the community
[#wikinews 23:15] <Xirzon> These are people like Amgine, IlyaHaykinson and Submarine, who are here today.
[#wikinews 23:15] <Amgine> There are currently at least two side projects attempting to figure out how to integrate categories and aggregators into RSS.
[#wikinews 23:15] <Xirzon> I'd also like to introduce jwales (Jimmy Wales), the founder of Wikipedia, and Angela Beesley, one of the members of the Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia Foundation. Thanks for coming.
[#wikinews 23:16] JOIN: CyberJournalist
[#wikinews 23:16] <Xirzon> Now, before we go into the details of Wikinews and blogs, I'd like to open the round of introductions.
[#wikinews 23:16] <Xirzon> I ask everyone who is not idle to write a little bit about themselves right now
[#wikinews 23:16] JOIN: zephyr11
[#wikinews 23:16] JOIN: SonicR
[#wikinews 23:16] <Amgine> Amgine - contributor at Wikinews.
[#wikinews 23:16] <Xirzon> what do you spend your time on, and what's your motivation for coming here today?
[#wikinews 23:16] <KevinMarks> ?def KevinMarks
[#wikinews 23:16] <jibot> KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs & syllepses & his blog is at http://epeus.blogspot.com & he explains how to get Creators paid at http://mediagora.com & originally from London, UK & living in Willow Glen, San Jose, CA & PST (UTC-8) & working at Technorati & wrote a python based irc client of DOOM
[#wikinews 23:17] <bdesham> [[en:user:bdesham]], wikipediaholic and occasional blogger
[#wikinews 23:17] <godsdog> I am a writer, builder of things media, and interested critic
[#wikinews 23:17] <jwales> ?def jwales
[#wikinews 23:17] <jibot> jwales is Jimmy "Jimbo" Wales of Wikipedia and http://www.jimmywales.com/ and if you wonder where he is right now, check http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales
[#wikinews 23:17] <dori> Dori - Wikipedian (en, sq), felt like dropping by and seeing what's going
[#wikinews 23:17] <isen> I'm isen, David Isenberg, interested in telecom, organizing http://freedom-to-connect Mar 30-31 w Gillmor, Jarvis, Weinberger and others
[#wikinews 23:17] <RMacK> I'm Rebecca MacKinnon, Berkman Ctr for Internet & Society Fellow by day, kitten-eating evil cyborg by night, formerly a CNN correspondent who worked in Asia for 12 years up till last year.
[#wikinews 23:17] <IlyaHaykinson> <-- Wikinews contributor, http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/User:IlyaHaykinson
[#wikinews 23:17] <Xirzon> My name is Erik Möller. On Wikipedia/Wikinews I go by "Eloquence". I wrote the original Wikinews proposal and organized the project vote. I'm trying to help especially with the policy side of things.
[#wikinews 23:17] <riorio> riorio is "Mats Halldin". A sysop on the Swedish Wikipedia, and a regular on the Swedish Wikinews
[#wikinews 23:18] <Angela> Angela = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Angela
[#wikinews 23:18] <Submarine> Submarine - contributor at Wikipedia and Wikinews, interested in citizen's involvement in the reporting of news
[#wikinews 23:18] <weaverluke> ?def weaverluke
[#wikinews 23:18] <jibot> weaverluke is in London, UK and blogs at http://www.i-together.net/weaverluke/weblog.html about identity, community, information architecture, emergent networks, social software, commercial ethics, Japanese culture, the digital divide and online-offline integration. Amongst other things.
[#wikinews 23:18] <JoiIto> ?def joiito
[#wikinews 23:18] <jibot> joiito is Joi Ito & blogs at http://joi.ito.com/ & is not to be mistaken for #joiito, which is a place & jibot with flesh & Joi head of International for Technorati, Chairman of Six Apart Japan, board member of Creative Commons & ICANN
[#wikinews 23:18] <nadav> [[en:User:Nadavspi]] - wikipedian interesting in this project.
[#wikinews 23:18] JOIN: Box_Nine
[#wikinews 23:18] <pHatidic> blogger and wikipedian, student of cornell university
[#wikinews 23:18] <pingswept> mechanical engineer by day, grammar police by night. Also sleeps at night.
[#wikinews 23:18] <nadav> oh, and somewhat getting into the blogging world.
[#wikinews 23:18] <KevinMarks> My interest is in being able to integrate wikinews into techorati searches in the most apposite way - whtehr it shows up as a blog or via tags, or both
[#wikinews 23:18] <Dan100> 'ello, see this - http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:2005/January. See the jump in stories after Jan 8? That was the day I overhauled WN, and I've been working on usability and writing news since
[#wikinews 23:18] <yannf> I am Yann Forget from France, interested by Wikinews, but not participating now, by lack of time
[#wikinews 23:18] <SonicR> actice user of de.wikinews
[#wikinews 23:19] <weaverluke> I'm interested in blog-wiki integration at a identity network level
[#wikinews 23:19] <skyfaller> I'm Nelson Pavlosky, co-founder of FreeCulture.org, an international student movement for free culture. We're interested in citizen journalism, wikis, free software, copylefted content, etc...
[#wikinews : 23:19] PART: Box_Nine
[#wikinews 23:19] <Xirzon> wow, IRC introductions are fun :)
[#wikinews 23:19] <alevin> Adina Levin, digital rights activist with EFF-Austin and Aclu-Texas, member of the Austin Bloggers collective, and member of the Socialtext founding team
[#wikinews 23:20] <alevin> ?def alevin
[#wikinews 23:20] <jibot> alevin is has a weblog at http://www.alevin.com/weblog and Adina Levin
[#wikinews 23:20] JOIN: seanbonner
[#wikinews 23:20] <Pete_Chatmag> Pete Carr, owner of Chatmag.com primarily a directory, we also cover chat/discussion related news stories
[#wikinews 23:20] Action: *JoiIto is also on board of SocialText
[#wikinews 23:20] <Ryo_> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilisateur:Ryo - sysop on w:fr, Wikimédia France member (chairman)
[#wikinews 23:20] <skyfaller> ?def skyfaller
[#wikinews 23:20] <jibot> skyfaller is Nelson Pavlosky & has a blog at http://nelson.freeculture.org & a junior at Swarthmore College & was an intern at the EFF & living in Swarthmore, PA & was a victorious plaintiff in the Diebold case
[#wikinews 23:20] <bdesham> Xirzon: heh, I had no idea you were Eloquence :-)
[#wikinews 23:20] <alevin> skyfaller++
[#wikinews 23:20] <alevin> diebold--
[#wikinews 23:20] <Xirzon> bdesham: people say I have too many names ;)
[#wikinews 23:20] <skyfaller> alevin: aww, thanks ^_^
[#wikinews 23:21] <JePe> My real name is Hans Luiks, Wikipedian and sysop at the Dutch Wikinews
[#wikinews 23:21] <alevin> is this chat being logged, I'd love to catch up later
[#wikinews 23:21] <Xirzon> alevin: yes, it's being logged ive
[#wikinews 23:21] JOIN: seanbonner
[#wikinews 23:21] <carlb> Carl Blesius - .LRN Board member http://dotlrn.org, MIT/HST Research Fellow, interested in distributed authoring and editing (edu and med)
[#wikinews 23:21] <Xirzon> alevin: http://scireview.de/wiki/channel.log
[#wikinews 23:21] <yannf> I am also Wikimedia France secretary
[#wikinews 23:21] Action: *riorio sooo many people
[#wikinews 23:21] <elian> elisabeth bauer - german wikinews and wikipedia contributor, on the board of wikimedia deutschland
[#wikinews 23:21] <_sj_> ok, there are three-four of us here in arlington...
[#wikinews 23:22] <Xirzon> thank you all so much for coming and introducing yourselves. feel free to keep writing about yourself. I'd like to jump right ahead to a question which I'm sure will interest many of you:
[#wikinews 23:22] <Xirzon> WHERE'S THE RSS?
[#wikinews 23:22] <_sj_> SJ - wikipedia and occasional blogger/en wikinews contributor
[#wikinews 23:22] <_sj_> hi Carl :-) we miss you here
[#wikinews 23:22] <Xirzon> Currently, what we have to offer are RSS and Atom feeds for the list of new pages as well as the recent changes to the entire Wikinews site
[#wikinews 23:22] <Xirzon> for the English Wikinews site, the new pages feed is at
[#wikinews 23:23] <Xirzon> http://en.wikinews.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Newpages&feed=rss
[#wikinews 23:23] <Xirzon> or Atom: http://en.wikinews.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Newpages&feed=atom
[#wikinews 23:23] <seanbonner> hi everyone - sean from metroblogging.com here
[#wikinews 23:23] <CyberJournalist> Jonathan Dube, CyberJournalist.net blogger by night (and work at msnbc.com as my day job)
[#wikinews 23:23] <Xirzon> Now, please keep in mind that this feed simply collects pages the moment they are created
[#wikinews 23:23] <Xirzon> so, they may not have undergone extensive community editing at the moment they show up in an RSS aggregator
[#wikinews 23:23] <Xirzon> this is not an ideal situation.
[#wikinews 23:24] <isen> whoops I am organizing http://freedom-to-connect.net -- left off the .net
[#wikinews 23:24] <Xirzon> another issue with the Newpages feed is that it shows the content of the pages as wikitext, rather than HTML
[#wikinews 23:24] <Xirzon> so, we're not very happy with that, and working towards a better implementation.
[#wikinews 23:24] <bdesham> perhaps we could put the community-edited pages in a certain category and set up a rss feed for articles newly added to that category
[#wikinews 23:24] <seanbonner> also one of the people behind bloggers without borders
[#wikinews 23:25] <Xirzon> please keep in mind that MediaWiki, the software which runs Wikinews, has been created for knowledge bases like Wikipedia.
[#wikinews 23:25] <Xirzon> and it will take a while for the software to catch up with the needs of the project.
[#wikinews 23:25] <Xirzon> bdesham: yes, let me get into that.
[#wikinews 23:25] <Amgine> Does newpages only collect the main news article namespace, or does it include everything, like new user pages or templates?
[#wikinews 23:25] JOIN: paulproteus
[#wikinews 23:25] <Ryo_> Amgine: everything
[#wikinews 23:25] <Xirzon> there is currently an alpha code extension written by Amgine and IlyaHaykinson which dynamically displays recent pages in a category, or set of categories
[#wikinews 23:26] <KevinMarks> does wikinews have a notion of editorial approval or not (I'm nto up to date on that debate)
[#wikinews 23:26] <Xirzon> if you want to look at the technical details, http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1411 shows the current state of discussion and development
[#wikinews 23:26] <Submarine> Xirzon, I note that there are provisions for moving articles from "work in progress" to "news". Could the RSS notification be issued only at that point.
[#wikinews 23:26] <Xirzon> we've been thinking about putting category-level RSS on top of that, or as a separate "Special page"
[#wikinews 23:26] JOIN: SonicR
[#wikinews 23:26] <_sj_> we also have Rick Heller here, formerly a wikinovel host
[#wikinews 23:27] <godsdog> who decides what moves from "in progress" to "news"?
[#wikinews 23:27] <Xirzon> KevinMarks: currently, we tag articles which have problems, which is the more practical approach
[#wikinews 23:27] <Xirzon> KevinMarks: in the long term, we'd like to continue to explore systematic review mechanisms, but again, this will likely require changes to the software to be efficient.
[#wikinews 23:27] <Dan100> "moving articles from "work in progress" to "news"" - there is no such process, essentially
[#wikinews 23:27] <Amgine> Wikinews works backwards from most editing standpoints; we assume authors are writing well, and we have an easy repair process for when problems crop up.
[#wikinews 23:28] <Xirzon> for instance, a model by which edits to an article are not immediately visible but only after a time delay within which they can be reverted, may be a more "wiki-style" way to maintain article quality.
[#wikinews 23:28] <Xirzon> Wikinews, right now, is very much what the name suggests: a wiki being used to write news.
[#wikinews 23:28] <RMacK> question: so hypothetically, if some person comes on and creates a false or highly biased story it will go out onto the rss feed before anybody can flag it as problematic?
[#wikinews 23:29] <Xirzon> Hence, all the processes tend to be very chaotic, consensus-based and, that's the good news, fast.
[#wikinews 23:29] <Amgine> Under the current RSS, that can happen, RMackK
[#wikinews 23:29] <Amgine> And that article will be removed, just about as fast, too.
[#wikinews 23:29] <isen> RMacK: stories "break" then they get fixed "-)
[#wikinews 23:29] <godsdog> following RMacK's question: If someone posts an accurate piece of original reporting and someone else tags it as problemattic, does it become "not news"?
[#wikinews 23:30] <jwales> RMack: yes, under the current RSS. In my opinion it is best to say that we do not have an RSS.
[#wikinews 23:30] <Amgine> Yes, godsdog. An article will be removed, examined, and then put back up.
[#wikinews 23:30] <jwales> The RSS that exists is really for the technical convenience of editors monitoring new stuff on the site, not suitable for use in a news aggregator.
[#wikinews 23:30] <Xirzon> RMacK: We want to reduce the risk of that happening by using categories, and tagging only articles which satisfy certain quality criteria.
[#wikinews 23:30] <Xirzon> That would leave the risk of false tagging, but that is much smaller, because it would be considered vandalism, which tends to be dealt with very quickly and efficiently.
[#wikinews 23:30] <godsdog> Amgine: So, back to my earlier question: Who makes that editorial decision that the article is okay, despite protests?
[#wikinews 23:31] <Xirzon> godsdog: if there are protests, then they will have to be resolved.
[#wikinews 23:31] <Dan100> that situation hasn't really arisen, frankly
[#wikinews 23:31] <Amgine> Consensus. If there is a disagreement, that disagreement is on the front page and gets a *lot* of eyes/.
[#wikinews 23:31] <Xirzon> there is no group of privileged users that makes editorial decisions.
[#wikinews 23:31] <godsdog> Xirzon: By whom? You refer to editors....
[#wikinews 23:31] <jwales> And wikipedia works the same way.
[#wikinews 23:31] <Amgine> It has come up a few time.
[#wikinews 23:31] <Xirzon> everyone is an editor :)
[#wikinews 23:31] <Dan100> we're all editors :)
[#wikinews 23:31] Action: *BesigedB is away -�(� auto-away after 25 minutes idle �)�- at 10:31p -�(� P:On / L:On �)�-
[#wikinews 23:31] <Amgine> Everyone is an editor, godsdog.
[#wikinews 23:31] <jwales> And the front page is usually pretty excellent.
[#wikinews 23:32] <alevin> wiki++
[#wikinews 23:32] <seanbonner> so the items with the most questions are seen by the most people?
[#wikinews 23:32] <dori> in wiki terms, an editor is someone who edits pages, which unless protected, means everyone/anyone
[#wikinews 23:32] <Dan100> My own thoughts are that if there's no reference for a statement, that part of the article gets removed
[#wikinews 23:32] <godsdog> Amgine: Someone locked the George W. Bush profile on Wikipedia, that means not everyone is an editor....
[#wikinews 23:32] <Xirzon> Oh yes, if you haven't, take a look at the redesigned English Main Page: http://en.wikinews.org/ - I think it is increasingly approaching a certain level of professionalism.
[#wikinews 23:32] <Dan100> We must thank Amgine for his work on the main page
[#wikinews 23:32] <jwales> godsdog: rarely do we lock things like that, and due only to vandalism attacks. We are working on better mechanisms (time-delay for example) for wikipedia.
[#wikinews 23:33] <Xirzon> now, as for the consensus process, I'd like to invite you to look at the Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates process, which is a good example of how such things work in wikis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP%3AFAC
[#wikinews 23:33] <Amgine> That profile is a regular target of vandalism. If we have a similar situation, an article on Wikinews might also be locked - Temporarily
[#wikinews 23:33] <RMacK> question: with this editing-by-comittee, how timely has the news "reporting" been? (vs how slow?) sorry i haven't been following it closely enuf to answer that myself.
[#wikinews 23:33] <godsdog> but it happens, and that's where this gets hard to explain....
[#wikinews 23:33] <Dan100> wikinews doesn't suffer from vandalism much, I've only seen one instance; we're too small
[#wikinews 23:33] <Amgine> We have twice scooped everyone, but usually we lag behind a few hours.
[#wikinews 23:34] <Xirzon> are there any questions related to RSS? otherwise we'll keep running an open discussion for a few more minutes
[#wikinews 23:34] <Amgine> Initial story-to-mainpage can be just a few minute.
[#wikinews 23:34] <godsdog> the virtue of not being attack because you're small doesn't fit with the goal of growing the wikinews service, does it?
[#wikinews 23:34] <Dan100> RMack - it's very hit and miss. Sometimes we can be right on top of things, eg if I'm looking at BBC News when news of a bomb breaks, I'll knock up a story straight away
[#wikinews 23:34] <Submarine> godsdog, Unfortunately, certain Wikipedia pages attract a lot of vandalism or edits showing partisanship. That's why they are blocked. As an example, lately, the main page of the English wikipedia had a picture of a gaping anus because some vandal edited it.
[#wikinews 23:34] <jwales> godsdog: the same is true for wikipedia -- as the site grows, the defense mechanisms grow
[#wikinews 23:34] <Amgine> No, the reason it's not happening is a news story is only news for a short while.
[#wikinews 23:34] JOIN: scrawford
[#wikinews 23:34] <jibot> scrawford is Susan Crawford and blogging at http://scrawford.blogware.com/blog and a friend of ICANN and legally brainy
[#wikinews 23:34] <Xirzon> godsdog: Wikipedia is one of the largest 100 websites. It seems to scale reasonably well.
[#wikinews 23:34] <Dan100> sometimes we can be hours behind, or miss things entirely
[#wikinews 23:34] <Dan100> we're only very new, and very small
[#wikinews 23:35] JOIN: SonicR
[#wikinews 23:35] <jwales> Yes, we miss a lot obviously. A small community can't do everything.
[#wikinews 23:35] <godsdog> look, i support the spirit of what wikinews is doing, but when you talk about "news" it's a hard question what is "control" or "gatekeeping" and I don't think you're answering that question
[#wikinews 23:35] <godsdog> i'll be quiet now
[#wikinews 23:35] <Amgine> godsdog - feel free to grill me on the topic after.
[#wikinews 23:35] <godsdog> ok
[#wikinews 23:35] <Xirzon> godsdog: we are all gatekeepers, in a way, though people who do a lot of work will be more respected in the community.
[#wikinews 23:35] <jwales> I think we are answering that question, godsdog.
[#wikinews 23:36] <RMacK> Dan100: to be devil's advocate then, why do i want to use wikinews instead of just watching the bbc? if you're getting most stories off MSM anyway?
[#wikinews 23:36] <godsdog> jwales, with all due respect, you're not
[#wikinews 23:36] <Dan100> godsdog - write it, post it. It's a easy as that
[#wikinews 23:36] <Xirzon> one way in which Wikinews will always be biased is in the range of topics it covers. We'll probably get a very large selection of technical news, for example.
[#wikinews 23:36] <JoiIto> so one of the questions was how to work with bloggers... I think that if bloggers were notified of stories in a timely manner about topics they were interested in, they would point to the article, driving traffic and possibly increasing the number of people involved in wikinews
[#wikinews 23:36] <Dan100> RMack - simple. We draw on many sources. We cross-check facts. We don't speculate or guess
[#wikinews 23:36] <Xirzon> I've always said that the way to address this is to use the instrument of visibility, i.e. those technical news will not all have to be shown on the Main Page.
[#wikinews 23:36] <JoiIto> I think this involves (as you clearly understand already) rss feeds based on topic tags
[#wikinews 23:36] <jwales> godsdog, to be clear: are you saying that we have not answered it, or that you disagree with the answer? If it is the first, I can try to explain further. If it is the second, then what is your objection besides "that's no answer"?
[#wikinews 23:36] <Amgine> RMacK: our writers tend to focus on articles and subject matter they know intimately, and they draw on many resources.
[#wikinews 23:36] <Xirzon> JoiIto: right.
[#wikinews 23:37] <Dan100> We aim to get it right when others are getting it wrong
[#wikinews 23:37] <JoiIto> Until you get the tech done, we should figure out a way to do it by hand or something.
[#wikinews 23:37] <godsdog> you haven't answered it. you've given what you think is an answer, but it isn't logically complete
[#wikinews 23:37] <seanbonner> Joi - exactly, which will benefit wikinews as well, in that more people whill know about it and begin contributing
[#wikinews 23:37] <SonicR> a large community gaurantees for a various number of topics
[#wikinews 23:37] <JoiIto> I'd love to link to wikinews... just trying to figure out a way to monitor it efficiently.
[#wikinews 23:37] <Submarine> RMacK, I think that Wikinews will be successful only if it tries to cover aspects that conventional news don't cover.
[#wikinews 23:37] <alevin> I can think of two suggestions about the blogger question:
[#wikinews 23:37] <seanbonner> the more bloggers posting news stories to wikinews the less tech-centric it will be
[#wikinews 23:37] <Xirzon> It would also be fun if someone just set up a WordPress or MT-based blog and crossposted tagged Wikinews stories. That way, we would isntantly get a nice RSS feed.
[#wikinews 23:37] <RMacK> submarine: i completely agree
[#wikinews 23:37] <alevin> crossposting -- austinbloggers has a crossposting solution using trackback
[#wikinews 23:38] <Xirzon> which brings me to another topic, licensing
[#wikinews 23:38] <IlyaHaykinson> for what it's worth, our Categories are basically what's known elsewhere as "tags"
[#wikinews 23:38] <alevin> I can write a post about austin on my blog, and it crossposts to http://www.austinbloggers.com
[#wikinews 23:38] <Submarine> RMacK, For example, most often, "conventional" journalists hardly know what they're talking about. Take most press articles talking of science, law, foreign countries, they are fraught with misunderstandings and elementary errors.
[#wikinews 23:38] <JoiIto> yes... trackback to a wikinews blog could be another way to sort stuff out
[#wikinews 23:38] <alevin> second, notification
[#wikinews 23:38] <Xirzon> Currently, all Wikinews content is in the public domain, except for some photos, which may be under copyleft licenses.
[#wikinews 23:38] <jwales> godsdog: well, in this brief discussion obviously a *lot* is incomplete. Do you have as specific question?
[#wikinews 23:38] <alevin> it would be great to have an interface where you could pick what you wanted to be notified about
[#wikinews 23:38] <godsdog> jwales: Yes, I asked two specific questions above....
[#wikinews 23:38] <JoiIto> tagwatchlists
[#wikinews 23:38] <alevin> and then get notified by medium of your choice - rss, email, irc, whatever
[#wikinews 23:38] <jwales> godsdog: there is a lot about how the wikipedia community works which is baffling until you've lived through it.
[#wikinews 23:39] <bdesham> heh
[#wikinews 23:39] <seanbonner> What about the reverse? Finding ways for certain blog posts, maybe ones that have a certain tag, to auto generate stories on wikinews?
[#wikinews 23:39] <Xirzon> This makes Wikinews different from Wikipedia, at least for now. Wikipedia content is licensed under a "share-alike" type licenses where all changes which you make have to be made available to the community.
[#wikinews 23:39] <jwales> godsdog: o.k. I will scroll up to try to find them... or, can you repeat?
[#wikinews 23:39] <godsdog> jwales: Gnosticism has its attractions, but it's just one way to see the world
[#wikinews 23:39] <JoiIto> Xirzon, good choice on the licenses
[#wikinews 23:39] <Amgine> That is under development, alevin, and it's based on Wikinews categories.
[#wikinews 23:39] <RMacK> "most often, "conventional" journalists hardly know what they're talking about. " i think that's an over-generalization but prefer not to argue about it now. more usefully, i share joi's concern... would like to link to wikinews more often but don't have efficient way of monitoring it.
[#wikinews 23:39] <Xirzon> You can do whatever you want with the stories from Wikinews, on the other hand.
[#wikinews 23:39] <Xirzon> Now, the public domain licensing of Wikinews content is not final.
[#wikinews 23:39] <Xirzon> There will be a community poll on that matter, and we will settle on the final license.
[#wikinews 23:39] <Amgine> <sigh>
[#wikinews 23:40] <Dan100> I quite like public domain
[#wikinews 23:40] <NotBesigedB> there's a part of me that liked the PDness
[#wikinews 23:40] <NotBesigedB> *likes
[#wikinews 23:40] <Dan100> What are the objections to it?
[#wikinews 23:40] Action: *BesigedB is back -�(� auto-away after 25 minutes idle �)�- gone 8 min 37 s
[#wikinews 23:40] <Xirzon> I won't get into the detailed arguments, but basically it's about whether we want as many people as possible to use Wikinews stories, or whether we want to capitalize on the copyleft idea
[#wikinews 23:40] <isen> wish: I could get all wikinews stories in telecom when they're posted or modified and check them for accuracy, bias, vandalism
[#wikinews 23:40] <jwales> godsdog: i am in no conceivable way gnostic, so I don't know what you're talking about.
[#wikinews 23:40] <Amgine> There are also some issues, such as a site which has be auto-downloading the articles for a while now.
[#wikinews 23:40] <alevin> what isen said
[#wikinews 23:40] <Dan100> Xirzon, that distinction is too subtle for me :(
[#wikinews 23:41] <Xirzon> well, let me give you an example
[#wikinews 23:41] <Amgine> What is telecom?
[#wikinews 23:41] <Xirzon> let's say the New York Times is so impressed by Wikinwes
[#wikinews 23:41] <Amgine> How can I implement it?
[#wikinews 23:41] <Xirzon> that they want to use one of our stories :)
[#wikinews 23:41] <bdesham> if another news services uses the facts (but not the specific prose) from a wikinews story, does share-alikeness apply?
[#wikinews 23:41] JOIN: _sjout_
[#wikinews 23:41] <Dan100> go on Xirzon
[#wikinews 23:41] <Submarine> bdesham, Facts cannot be copyrighted.
[#wikinews 23:41] <Xirzon> now, if Wikinews content is copylefted, that would mean that they would have to make any modifications they make to it freely available as well.
[#wikinews 23:41] <dori> bdesham: you can't copyright facts
[#wikinews 23:41] <Xirzon> If it is public domain, they can say "Copyright (C) 2005 The New York Times Company"
[#wikinews 23:42] <Xirzon> they don't even have to credit Wikinews
[#wikinews 23:42] <isen> telecom: telecommunications, networks, fiber, wireless, cable, twisted pair, and their protocols and applications
[#wikinews 23:42] <Dan100> I see - is there a licence that at least forces them to credit us?
[#wikinews 23:42] <Xirzon> and they certainly don't have to put their modifications in thet public domain
[#wikinews 23:42] <Xirzon> yes
[#wikinews 23:42] <Amgine> Thanks, isen
[#wikinews 23:42] <BesigedB> Dan100: commons CC-BY
[#wikinews 23:42] <Xirzon> There are attribution-only licenses.
[#wikinews 23:42] <JoiIto> Maybe you should use CC by
[#wikinews 23:42] <bdesham> ok, as I thought... we only really have to be worried about licensing in cases where other services use actual chunks of the WN story, and not just the info
[#wikinews 23:42] <JoiIto> jinx
[#wikinews 23:42] <Dan100> they sound like a good idea then
[#wikinews 23:42] <seanbonner> Xirzon - That's a big blogging problem right now as well, big media swiping stories / details from blogs and not crediting them
[#wikinews 23:42] JOIN: jd
[#wikinews 23:43] <Xirzon> so, the question is, do we want to "force" other people to make any changes available, or do we just want to get the Wikinews identity and content spread as widely as possible?
[#wikinews 23:43] <Xirzon> right now, if you want to use a Wikinews story in your blog, the rule is simple:
[#wikinews 23:43] <Dan100> the latter, imo
[#wikinews 23:43] <Xirzon> Do whatever you want.
[#wikinews 23:43] <BesigedB> big media either misattributes ((C) wikipedia, for example) or claims ownership
[#wikinews 23:43] <Xirzon> But keep an eye on the footer of Wikinews stories. If we adopt a new license, it will be noted there.
[#wikinews 23:44] <Dan100> publicity, a more restrictive licence might constrict our coverage in the wider media (thinking about growth here)
[#wikinews 23:44] <Xirzon> Now, about the other direction
[#wikinews 23:44] <JoiIto> but when MSM rips off stories, they get both barrels from Blogs. They won't be able to keep it up for long... I think the same for wikinews.
[#wikinews 23:44] <Xirzon> Putting content from blogs into Wikinews articles.
[#wikinews 23:44] <isen> Xir: do whatever you want, sure, but there's a blogger ethic about giving credit where due (and linking to original) and if you don't do this, you're less of a blogger
[#wikinews 23:44] <Xirzon> isen: true!
[#wikinews 23:44] <JoiIto> Just imagine what the times would look like if everyone kept pointing out the stories they were "ripping off" without giving credit.
[#wikinews 23:44] <JoiIto> Giving credit doesn't have to be in the license... it can be a social norm.
[#wikinews 23:44] <Xirzon> Most blogs, unfortunately, don't have explicit licensing information or just use regular copyright.
[#wikinews 23:44] <seanbonner> JoiIto: that's great on a national level, but on local it's a little harder to dish out both barrels
[#wikinews 23:44] <Xirzon> This means that we have to ask them for permission if we want to use anything they write as the basis of Wikinews articles.
[#wikinews 23:44] <Dan100> well, we also credit sources, so any blog used would HAVE to be credited, at least
[#wikinews 23:44] JOIN: SonicR
[#wikinews 23:45] <Xirzon> Obviously, that doesn't preclude us from linking.
[#wikinews 23:45] <skyfaller> Xirzon: it seems that a completely PD policy would not help spread the Wikinews identity. At least a CC-Attribution license would require that they spread the Wikinews brand, even if it doesn't require that they give us the same freedoms (i.e. copyleft)
[#wikinews 23:45] <Dan100> always not also, sorry
[#wikinews 23:45] <Xirzon> skyfaller: yes, that is one argument that has been brought up.
[#wikinews 23:45] <Xirzon> One thing that I think will be interesting
[#wikinews 23:45] <JoiIto> Xirzon, right. So the question is, will they jsut not use copyleft because of the pain... you need to ask MSM this.
[#wikinews 23:45] <isen> joi: right, social norm
[#wikinews 23:45] JOIN: Jamesday
[#wikinews 23:45] <jibot> Jamesday is from Wikipeida
[#wikinews 23:45] <JoiIto> You'd rather have people use it and attribute than not use you at all I assume.
[#wikinews 23:45] <Xirzon> is to have "Perspectives" links below Wikinews articles that link to bloggers' views.
[#wikinews 23:45] <BesigedB> jibot: wikipeidia? :P
[#wikinews 23:45] <Dan100> I would, Joilto
[#wikinews 23:46] <seanbonner> the attribution is the issue
[#wikinews 23:46] <JoiIto> BesigedB, ?
[#wikinews 23:46] <Xirzon> I would like to invite all bloggers who are here today to think about using a Creative Commons license for your content.
[#wikinews 23:46] <alevin> msm are pretty vulnerable to broad criticisim...
[#wikinews 23:46] <alevin> at the extreme, takedown like dan rather
[#wikinews 23:46] <bdesham> Xirzon: I do :-)
[#wikinews 23:46] <seanbonner> Xirzon - I'd guess most of the bloggers here do
[#wikinews 23:46] <Xirzon> preferably one which does not prevent commercial use. that's not because wikinews is commercial, but because non-commercial licenses are incompatible with those which allow commercial licensing, such as the FDL or CC-BY
[#wikinews 23:46] <BesigedB> at the risk of bugging developers with more petty requests, trackback on wikinews would be nice if we want to spread blogger love
[#wikinews 23:47] <isen> attribution: when I blog, sure I'd like to be attributed, but I'd rather see my work used w/o attrib than NOT used!
[#wikinews 23:47] <Dan100> Would we only need to consider the licencing of the source blog if we were copy and pasting?
[#wikinews 23:47] <jwales> Yes, I would not support a non-commercial license, I thinkt hey are bad.
[#wikinews 23:47] <skyfaller> Xirzon: is CC-BY-SA compatible with the GFDL?
[#wikinews 23:47] <BesigedB> skyfaller: no
[#wikinews 23:47] <BesigedB> iirc?
[#wikinews 23:47] <jwales> skyfaller: no. In spirit they are the same, but they can't work together righ tnow.
[#wikinews 23:47] <Xirzon> people from GNU and CC are working towards CC-BY-SA and GFDL compatibility.
[#wikinews 23:47] <jwales> The main reason to use GNU FDL on wikinews is: wikipedia
[#wikinews 23:48] <jwales> We can't do that under PD.
[#wikinews 23:48] <Xirzon> Dan100: depends on whether the source blog uses material beyond fair use from elsewhere.
[#wikinews 23:48] <RMacK> besiegedb - good idea on trackback.
[#wikinews 23:48] <jwales> But... PD seems to be working ok, meaning we are doing fine without wikipedia cut/paste.
[#wikinews 23:48] <SonicR> There is a non-binding poll about the lisence going on at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/License_straw_poll
[#wikinews 23:48] <u119> With existing Wikinews content PD, is there any problem instituting a license?
[#wikinews 23:48] <Dan100> I'd like to think we'd never copy and paste, personally
[#wikinews 23:49] <Xirzon> another difference between wikipedia and wikinews is that wikinews does not allow fair use of images
[#wikinews 23:49] <isen> jwales, cc-by-sa? gfdl? fdl? pd? I'm new here, sorry
[#wikinews 23:49] <jwales> Therefore, probably CC-BY will make the most sense IMHO. I love copyleft, but I'm unsure about the desirability of it in this context. (Joi's argument makes sense to me: make it easy for MSM to lift stories from us with attribution.)
[#wikinews 23:49] <BesigedB> u119: no. no problem at all. that's why pd is used
[#wikinews 23:49] <Xirzon> instead, all images on Wikinews come from the Wikimedia Commons, at http://commons.wikimedia.org/
[#wikinews 23:49] <Dan100> If we are 're-phrasing', what are the copyright issues?
[#wikinews 23:49] <jwales> isen: I'm sorry. It's a complicated alphabet soup. :-)
[#wikinews 23:49] <Xirzon> the reasoning behind that decision is that it is very difficult for us, as a news source, to argue that we can legally use, say, a photo from Reuters or AP
[#wikinews 23:49] JOIN: jill^crux2
[#wikinews 23:49] <Amgine> isen: These are a variety of copyleft licensing options. I suggest you look over Wikipedia... <getting links>
[#wikinews 23:49] <Xirzon> since we are direct competitors.
[#wikinews 23:50] <Amgine> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft
[#wikinews 23:50] <isen> Amgine, thx
[#wikinews 23:50] <Xirzon> now, are there any ideas out there of how and when we should link to blogs?
[#wikinews 23:50] <skyfaller> jwales: I concur... I love CC, but I think that they've done the community a disservice by not standardizing on one or two licenses, like GPL, LGPL
[#wikinews 23:50] <Dan100> (who/what is MSM?)
[#wikinews 23:50] <alevin> mainstream media
[#wikinews 23:50] <jwales> MSM = "main stream media"
[#wikinews 23:50] <Dan100> cheers :)
[#wikinews 23:50] <seanbonner> Xirzon: When blogs break news? ;)
[#wikinews 23:50] <alevin> new york times, bbc, cbs news
[#wikinews 23:51] <Xirzon> ironically, we have to ask the same questions of credibility when we're linking to a blog as people ask about wikinews.
[#wikinews 23:51] <BesigedB> why isn't CC-BY gfdl compat?
[#wikinews 23:51] <alevin> hmmmm...
[#wikinews 23:51] <jwales> The idea is, as we begin to produce good work (which we will begin to do reliably over time), we'd love it if some newspapers started using it just like they use the AP feed. Except that it costs them nothing. They may be too frightened of a copyleft license.
[#wikinews 23:51] <JoiIto> isen cc-by-sa = Creative Commons Attribution Share Alike | Gfdl = GNU Free Documentation License | PD = Public Domain
[#wikinews 23:51] <Xirzon> so, it may be useful to build a directory of blogs who have a track record of following journalistic standards.
[#wikinews 23:51] <skyfaller> BesigedB: for the same reason PD wouldn't be compliant
[#wikinews 23:51] <alevin> slash-style reputation, or is that too unwiki?
[#wikinews 23:51] <Amgine> There are many occasions when blogs break news. The difficulty is for Wikinews to *know* when they break news.
[#wikinews 23:51] <JoiIto> BesigedB, minor differences.
[#wikinews 23:51] <Amgine> Which is one of the reasons why we're talking here.
[#wikinews 23:51] <isen> Joi, thx
[#wikinews 23:51] <JoiIto> Like whether you have to attach the whole license to the work or just link to it... etc.
[#wikinews 23:51] <jwales> I thin slash-style reputation mechanisms are not as good as human community
[#wikinews 23:52] <BesigedB> skyfaller: PD is compatable with every licence ever. because anyone can derive content and call it their own
[#wikinews 23:52] <seanbonner> Amgine - the more often wikinews and bloggers play together the less that will be an issue
[#wikinews 23:52] <alevin> jwales :-)
[#wikinews 23:52] <seanbonner> wikinews will know it because the bloggers will be posting it
[#wikinews 23:52] <RMacK> amgine: knowing when blogs break news.. this is where tagging could be really useful.
[#wikinews 23:52] <Jamesday> re licensing, do remember that in most places, moral rights exists and grants authors the right to be associated with their work.
[#wikinews 23:52] <alevin> naive question....
[#wikinews 23:52] <seanbonner> RMacK: exactly
[#wikinews 23:52] <jill^crux2> jwales, they already include a newswire attribution, why shouldn't they add a (Wikinews) tag?
[#wikinews 23:52] <skyfaller> BesigedB: well, it doesn't work going the other way... you can't take GFDL content and make it PD
[#wikinews 23:52] <Jamesday> And that includes PD work.,
[#wikinews 23:52] <alevin> why is breaking news the most important thing...
[#wikinews 23:52] <Dan100> Xirzon - a public bloglines list of trusted blogs?
[#wikinews 23:53] <Dan100> That authors could consult as/when needed?
[#wikinews 23:53] <Amgine> seanbonner - Yes. I think it would be great when a blog has a breaking story if we could cross-post, or have a posting board, or similar.
[#wikinews 23:53] <JoiIto> if wikinews accepted trackbacks or some sort of pings, bloggers that want to let people at wikinews know that they have a story breaking that they want help on could let you know.
[#wikinews 23:53] <seanbonner> alevin: because it's news, people want to know what's going on.
[#wikinews 23:53] <Xirzon> unfortunately, reporting on blog often tends to be very ''ad hoc''
[#wikinews 23:53] <alevin> it is an internal competitive metric for journalists, but...
[#wikinews 23:53] <alevin> where there's a real story, there are so many angles...
[#wikinews 23:53] <Xirzon> a blog which may only post opinion most of the time may suddenly post a detailed report about a local event
[#wikinews 23:53] <RMacK> joi: great idea. ping wikinews
[#wikinews 23:53] <Amgine> Yes, RMacK. I have the RSS engine in mediawiki open right now.
[#wikinews 23:53] <alevin> that to read and follow, you want mutliple sources
[#wikinews 23:53] <Amgine> It isn't pretty.
[#wikinews 23:53] <skyfaller> BesigedB: so you can't take stuff from Wikipedia and use it in Wikinews if Wikinews is not GFDL
[#wikinews 23:53] <Xirzon> this is cool, but it makes it more difficult for us to know which blogs we can rely on.
[#wikinews 23:53] <BesigedB> skyfaller: i get that.
[#wikinews 23:54] <Amgine> Joilto: any links to trackback?
[#wikinews 23:54] <Xirzon> so, to some extent, we'll just have to do what regular reporters do, and follow up with the people who post stories on blogs, and try to verify them.
[#wikinews 23:54] JOIN: SonicR
[#wikinews 23:54] <JoiIto> A lot of what bloggers do... we IM each other when we see a weird story on the wire... like AFP... something likely to be wrong and picked up by the MSM
[#wikinews 23:54] <seanbonner> Xirzon: that's the way it works int he blog world though
[#wikinews 23:54] <seanbonner> and yes, accepting trackbacks, or using them even would be a giant step
[#wikinews 23:54] <RMacK> more on pings: like if we could ping different parts of wikinews depending on what kind of story it was.. that would be even better
[#wikinews 23:54] <JoiIto> We work together to debunk and to scrub the story... Would love to work with wikinews in this sort of real-time ad hoc newsroom sort of thing
[#wikinews 23:54] <BesigedB> copyleft, sharealike and all that. wikinews should be really be a content source, though. as in people read on wikipedia and write their own content based on that
[#wikinews 23:55] <Amgine> Would a list of Wikinews contributors IM addresses be usefulr to bloggers, then?
[#wikinews 23:55] <Submarine> "Debunk", as is?
[#wikinews 23:55] <Xirzon> JoiIto: Something like MoonEdit or SubEthaEdit may also be especially cool in a virtual newsroom context
[#wikinews 23:55] <Submarine> My impression about blogging is that much blogging is about opinions.
[#wikinews 23:55] <JoiIto> Amgine, absolutely.
[#wikinews 23:55] <alevin> amgine I imagine that wouldn't scale
[#wikinews 23:55] <JoiIto> we should have a newsroom page where bloggers and wikinews people share IM addresses.
[#wikinews 23:55] <alevin> imagine getting thousands of im pings/day
[#wikinews 23:55] <Xirzon> right
[#wikinews 23:55] <RMacK> amgine: especially with some indication of their focus and specialty/interest
[#wikinews 23:55] <Amgine> It may... we already have some people keen on setting up bureaus about certain topics, regions.
[#wikinews 23:55] <jwales> Submarine: careful what you say. The bloggers get upset when you say that. Some of them anyway. ;-)
[#wikinews 23:55] <alevin> would need to be narrowed, there are only so many minutes
[#wikinews 23:55] <seanbonner> Submarine: to an extent, but it's the same as reporting, just more upfront
[#wikinews 23:55] <Submarine> seanbonner, Right.
[#wikinews 23:56] <skyfaller> Xirzon: we're actually working on putting together an open source cross-platform SubEthaEdit replacement at FreeCulture.org, written in Python
[#wikinews 23:56] <JoiIto> The importance of real time is that stories break 24 hours a day. I am in the same time zone as Australia so some stories from the UK break in my time zone before they hit the US
[#wikinews 23:56] <Xirzon> would bloggers be happy to coordinate on, say, a Wikimedia-hosted wiki page, or would a shared space have to be "neutral territory"?
[#wikinews 23:56] <SonicR> Submarine:But wikinews is not about opinon
[#wikinews 23:56] <jwales> Submarine: Although Dave Winer was a little happier when I made a distinction between opinion and _mere opinion_. Blogs are almost always opinion, but that doesn't mean that it is _mere opinion_.
[#wikinews 23:56] <seanbonner> bloggers aren't territorial like that, most of them are pro-wiki
[#wikinews 23:56] <Submarine> My impression is that the big interest of Wikinews is that we could have some people expert in many areas to filter news.
[#wikinews 23:56] <seanbonner> and even run their own wikis
[#wikinews 23:56] <skyfaller> Xirzon: if you know anyone who might be interested in lending a hand, please point them my way
[#wikinews 23:56] <Xirzon> I think a shared space for citizen journalists from around the world, no matter what project they're working on - be it a blog, Indymedia, OhMyNews, or Wikinews, might definitely be a good idea.
[#wikinews 23:56] <JoiIto> Xirzon, I can't speak for all bloggers, but I'm sure that they would if there was some benefit.
[#wikinews 23:56] <pHatidic> Maybe finished wikinews articles could be posted on a collaborative scoop blog (e.g. http://www.theworldforum.org) so that way they would be permanently there, and trackback could be implemented into that instead of having to add it to wikimedia, and then that way the stories could also be discussed like they are on a normal blog
[#wikinews 23:56] <jwales> Xirzon: I would say wikinews talk pages can serve that function well.
[#wikinews 23:56] <Dan100> "My impression about blogging is that much blogging is about opinions." - nail/head. Wikinews just isn't the place for opinion - one thing that makes us different - we only deal in facts (hopefully)
[#wikinews 23:56] <RMacK> i agree with joi.
[#wikinews 23:57] <Submarine> For instance, when there were news about the Tsunami, there was a lot of bullshit. Merely having some geophysicist onboard would have helped sorting out the bullshit.
[#wikinews 23:57] <Xirzon> Maybe there should also be a real-time citizen journalism chat room that is not project-specific.
[#wikinews 23:57] <JoiIto> yes... it might be better if wikinews was the workspace, but you published as a blog
[#wikinews 23:57] <RMacK> dan100.. but as some might say... all facts are relative.. ;-)
[#wikinews 23:57] <Submarine> This is something that journalists seldom do: have their stuff read by some scientist or other expert.
[#wikinews 23:57] <isen> news is also an opinion!!! Note terms like "insurgents" vs "anti-occupation fighers"
[#wikinews 23:57] <JoiIto> all of the tools for notification, rss, tags are already built into blog tools and you don't have to reinvent
[#wikinews 23:57] <seanbonner> isen++
[#wikinews 23:57] <alevin> joiito++
[#wikinews 23:57] <wenko> great poijt
[#wikinews 23:57] <Amgine> Strongly disagree, Dan100: any news article has opinion/view
[#wikinews 23:58] <Submarine> isen, Let us call them "people with funny names and automatic weapons".
[#wikinews 23:58] <seanbonner> Dan100: that's a very common misconseption
[#wikinews 23:58] <Jamesday> Have a feeling some are missing the point about bloggers: they are routinely writing about facts, particularly the professional bloggers.
[#wikinews 23:58] <IlyaHaykinson> Another way that bloggers can very easily collaborate with wikinews is submit short story leads to pages like http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/News_Briefs:_January_18%2C_2005 -- they don't need to be the long drawn out story but rather jsut a snippet. someone might later come by and transform it into a full article.
[#wikinews : 23:58] PART: jd
[#wikinews 23:58] <Xirzon> as a neutral mailing list, there already is a list called "peer-to-peer journalism": http://lists.infoanarchy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/p2pj
[#wikinews : 23:58] PART: wenko
[#wikinews 23:58] <SonicR> isen: you are right but we alyays try to stick to NPOV
[#wikinews 23:58] <JoiIto> I also believe facts are also opinions
[#wikinews 23:58] <Jamesday> Providing a shared space, like someo of the professional shard blogs, would allow them to more easily combine work.
[#wikinews 23:59] <Dan100> "any news article has opinion/view" - simply, we shouldn't
[#wikinews 23:59] <alevin> the selection of facts is an opinion
[#wikinews 23:59] <isen> who defines "N"?
[#wikinews 23:59] <JoiIto> but I agree having NPOV as a vision is different from blogs
[#wikinews 23:59] <Jamesday> IlyaHaykinson, why wouldn't the bloggers just write it?
[#wikinews 23:59] <isen> joi++
[#wikinews 23:59] <Submarine> JoiIto, Perhaps. But on legal matters, I'm more interested in the opinion of a trained legal expert than about that of Mr Foobar Blogger.
[#wikinews 23:59] <Jamesday> That's what they are doing when blogging, in the professional areas.
[#wikinews 23:59] <seanbonner> For example - I have almost 500 bloggers contributing to city specific blogs on metroblogging.com - when those people are writing about even's happening in their towns it's factual and first hand
[#wikinews 23:59] <Jamesday> Submarine, sounds as though you may have missed the legal blogs, written by lawyers.
[#wikinews 23:59] <Amgine> <nod @ seanbonner>
[#wikinews 23:59] <Xirzon> seanbonner: how is this content licensed?
[#wikinews 23:59] <IlyaHaykinson> Jamesday: i'm say this is an easy way to initiate articles without having to write the whole thing if bloggers don't have time but want to participate in wikinews.
[#wikinews 00:00] <godsdog> I suggest everyone thinking NPOV watch Kurosawa's Rashomon tonight.....
[#wikinews 00:00] <isen> but some opinions are stronger than others -- note that global warming is an opinion, one shared by all climate scientists
[#wikinews 00:00] <pHatidic> joi: yes if the finished articles were posted on the blogs, then the articles would be NPOV but people could post their opinions
[#wikinews 00:00] <JoiIto> Jamesday, exactly. Bloggers shoot from the hip to try to beat others. There should be a way for wikinews to know when this happens, but expecting bloggers to post snippets in wikinews when they have a platform is probably asking too much from most
[#wikinews 00:00] <Dan100> alevin - it's up to you to write the story that deserves attention
[#wikinews 00:00] <Amgine> I like the wiki newsbriefs idea: it is a way to throw a teaser to an article out there, with a link to the source.
[#wikinews 00:00] <JoiIto> pHatidic, yup
[#wikinews 00:00] <alevin> dan100--
[#wikinews 00:00] <Jamesday> JoiIto, consider the strength of a shared place, where all can use the result.
[#wikinews 00:00] <RMacK> joi, thats why your idea of pinging wikinews when we post is really great
[#wikinews 00:00] <seanbonner> all metblogs are CC
[#wikinews 00:00] <alevin> there are some topics (say, africa_
[#wikinews 00:00] <alevin> )
[#wikinews 00:00] <Jamesday> That is, more benefit for everyone.
[#wikinews 00:00] <alevin> that don't get covered much
[#wikinews 00:00] <Xirzon> one thing that would be very useful for us, regardless of the surrounding context, would be photographs taken by bloggers
[#wikinews 00:01] <Xirzon> something that every blogger can do right now:
[#wikinews 00:01] <alevin> that's an opinion
[#wikinews 00:01] <Submarine> Xirzon, Right.
[#wikinews 00:01] <Xirzon> 1) create an account at http://commons.wikimedia.org/
[#wikinews 00:01] <RMacK> would be really cool if wikinews stories could show the blogger trackback that adds info to the stories
[#wikinews 00:01] <JoiIto> Jamesday, yes. but I literally miss the first 10 minutes of board meetings sometimes getting a story out on my blog in a timely way.
[#wikinews 00:01] <Submarine> Xirzon, One BIG problem of WP and WN is to get photos.
[#wikinews 00:01] <Amgine> There are also vloggers and audiobloggers.
[#wikinews 00:01] <isen> bye all, other obligations call, just when it is getting interesting :-(
[#wikinews 00:01] <Xirzon> 2) upload photos and add them to the [[Current events]] page.
[#wikinews 00:01] <Submarine> "Fair use" seems much overused.
[#wikinews 00:01] <seanbonner> JoiIto: which is why a tag that would then autopost something to wikinews would be beneficial
[#wikinews 00:01] <JoiIto> I don't have time to go into another space usually if it's an important piece... IE (receive phone call, step out of meeting, blog like mad, apologize and join meeting again...)
[#wikinews 00:01] <alevin> seanbonner, yes
[#wikinews 00:01] <seanbonner> The story could even be marked "from the blogosphere" or something
[#wikinews 00:01] <Amgine> There has been discussion of creating a series of audio bits, but we don't have the expertise yet.
[#wikinews 00:01] <Jamesday> JoiIto, well, that's somethign you coudl write adn post:)
[#wikinews 00:02] <seanbonner> so that people know it's from a blog, and developing
[#wikinews 00:02] <Jamesday> And other scould work on while you're in the meeting:)
[#wikinews 00:02] <Xirzon> JoiIto: the question is if we can come up with a scalable forum for coordinating real-time citizen journalism around the world
[#wikinews 00:02] <JoiIto> right. it should have low additional overhead. something automatic
[#wikinews 00:02] <JoiIto> Maybe we can build it into Ecto... have a single function to public to the wiki and the blog if you click "wikinews" as a category or something
[#wikinews 00:02] <JoiIto> do you have an API to post to wikinews?
[#wikinews 00:02] <alevin> austinbloggers uses trackback for that
[#wikinews 00:02] <IlyaHaykinson> JoiIto: not really. there are several bot frameworks that can do this, kind of.
[#wikinews 00:03] <Amgine> Joilto: it's the same as Wikipedia: same engine/database.
[#wikinews 00:03] <Dan100> Joilto - oh I wish :)
[#wikinews 00:03] <Xirzon> JoiIto: some work has also been done on a SOAP interface to MediaWiki. JeLuF would be the right person on Freenode to talk to about that
[#wikinews 00:03] <alevin> when I add an "austin" category to a post, it gets trackbacked into austinbloggers
[#wikinews 00:03] <Jamesday> JoiIto, there are bots which can automate posting (though a security update temporarily broke them all)
[#wikinews 00:03] <Dan100> so it's possible?!
[#wikinews 00:03] JOIN: SonicR
[#wikinews 00:03] <Jamesday> Yes, it's possible to automatically post from any original source.
[#wikinews 00:03] <Amgine> Yes, dan100. I have used jEdit to work offline.
[#wikinews 00:04] <JoiIto> So... probably not going to happen, but if you make a metaweblog API or Atom API for Wikinews or a corner of wikinews, all of the blog authoring tools would work with wikinews... then adding something would be one click for us.
[#wikinews 00:04] <alevin> does ecto do crossposting yet?
[#wikinews 00:04] <Xirzon> excuse my ignorance, but what is ecto?
[#wikinews 00:04] <Dan100> I mean to automate all the finding the right page to edit, typing in the code etc
[#wikinews 00:04] <alevin> an offline editor for blogs
[#wikinews 00:04] <nadav> It's a blogging client
[#wikinews 00:04] <seanbonner> blogging software
[#wikinews 00:04] <Xirzon> thanks :)
[#wikinews 00:04] <JoiIto> alevin, well, you save then you an post each by hand, but not that much trouble. Cross posting is easy.
[#wikinews 00:04] <Dan100> I mean I developed 'Reporters tools' to make it as easy as possible, but it's at the limits of what's possible on the wiki itself
[#wikinews 00:04] <Xirzon> a cross-posting feature would definitely be useful, though there's a risk of people running into conflicts because they don't know anything about our policies
[#wikinews 00:05] <JoiIto> Ecto (which I own and Adriaan writes) posts to dozens of blog platforms because they use the blog APIs
[#wikinews 00:05] <JoiIto> Xirzon, true. Maybe you should have them have to have an account and then have to read something about the policies before getting the account.
[#wikinews 00:05] <Jamesday> JoiIto, if someone wants to write it, it's readily doable. Fiding interested developer with time would be the issue.
[#wikinews 00:05] <JoiIto> Maybe a quiz. ;-)
[#wikinews 00:05] <Dan100> Y'know, I don't want us to become one big aggregator
[#wikinews 00:05] <Xirzon> maybe stuff that comes from people who have no experience with Wikinews should go into a special queue.
[#wikinews 00:05] <JoiIto> Dan100, no, but I want to be able to easily toss stories into a bin.
[#wikinews 00:05] <JoiIto> When I have time, I'll dive in and work at wikinews like everyone else.
[#wikinews 00:05] <Xirzon> where Wikinews regulars would then make quick decisions about it.
[#wikinews 00:06] <Dan100> explain more joilto :)
[#wikinews 00:06] <alevin> maybe people should need to register to crosspost
[#wikinews 00:06] <JoiIto> but "hey, you guys really should read this..." would be a useful input
[#wikinews 00:06] <alevin> but can write freely
[#wikinews 00:06] <Dan100> 'bin'
[#wikinews 00:06] <Jamesday> Dan100, consider legal bloggers who are IP lawyers and otehrs organising their initial writings to produce a portal for IP news stories
[#wikinews 00:06] Action: *_sj_ fixes some network problems
[#wikinews 00:06] <Xirzon> [[Category:Post from a potentially clueless user]] ;)
[#wikinews 00:06] <Jamesday> then do the same in every other legal specialty and repeat in other areas.
[#wikinews 00:06] <JoiIto> well a trackback list of interesting stories that people have pinged you with...
[#wikinews : 00:06] PART: BesigedB
[#wikinews 00:06] <Dan100> I got ya
[#wikinews 00:06] <alevin> have a higher barrier for cross-posting than direct posting
[#wikinews 00:06] <JoiIto> wikinews people could track that and jump on any interesting stories.
[#wikinews 00:06] <seanbonner> JoiIto: right. Even having a list of wikinews IMs that URLs could be sent to when something came up wiulf be a step in the right direction
[#wikinews 00:06] <JoiIto> and vice versa obviously
[#wikinews 00:07] <Dan100> so some people could send interesting pings, and others could turn them into WN stories?
[#wikinews 00:07] <Xirzon> how many users does ecto have?
[#wikinews 00:07] <alevin> an IM tipline
[#wikinews 00:07] <JoiIto> Bloggers would subscribe to wikinews feeds and jump on stories they have information about. They could do it on their blogs or in wikinews. The best would be if they did it in wikinews and linked from their blogs I guess.
[#wikinews 00:07] <seanbonner> I think the real value will come from bloggers linking to wikinews story
[#wikinews 00:07] <seanbonner> brb
[#wikinews 00:07] <Amgine> seanbonner: I can start that immediately. The other may take a bit longer.
[#wikinews 00:08] <JoiIto> Xirzon, I'm not sure of the exact number right now, but it's a fairly high number.
[#wikinews 00:08] <Xirzon> JoiIto: we should definitely follow up on Wikinews integration
[#wikinews 00:08] <JoiIto> It's the reference for a lot of blog platform builders for checking their api
[#wikinews 00:08] <Xirzon> I can try to get you in touch with the right people from the MediaWiki side of things
[#wikinews 00:08] <jwales> I wonder if there is a cultural divide between bloggers and wikipedians in terms of IM versus irc.
[#wikinews 00:08] <Dan100> GAIM :)
[#wikinews 00:08] <JoiIto> Xirzon, OK. Cool.
[#wikinews 00:08] <jwales> We pretty much use all irc. But I hear a lot about bloggers using IM.
[#wikinews 00:08] <JoiIto> jwales, I think it's mixed for bloggers too.
[#wikinews 00:08] <alevin> irc is prevalent in geek/net communities
[#wikinews 00:09] Action: *paulproteus , like Dan100, uses gaim for IRC and stopped worrying a long time ago ;)
[#wikinews 00:09] <Xirzon> Wiki users tend to be a little more technical than bloggers, hence more IRC
[#wikinews 00:09] <alevin> im is much more broadly used
[#wikinews 00:09] <Amgine> I don't know if it has be brought up here...http://ecto.kung-foo.tv/
[#wikinews 00:09] <JoiIto> I get stories probably equally from IRC as from IM.
[#wikinews 00:09] <jwales> We're not so mixed. Or if there are wikiepdia IM communities, I don't know about it.
[#wikinews 00:09] <Dan100> I use whatever, IM, irc, it's all the same in GAIM
[#wikinews 00:09] <Xirzon> Skype is also gaining some popularity
[#wikinews 00:09] <Xirzon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Instant_Messaging_Wikipedians has a list of Pedia users (some of whom are on Wikinews) and their IM contacts
[#wikinews 00:09] <JoiIto> But a lot of story creation, at least for me, is IM because some of the stuff is sketchy until it's ready and the timing is important.
[#wikinews 00:10] <Xirzon> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_using_VoIP is a slowly growing list of VoIP users
[#wikinews 00:10] <Amgine> skype, iChat w/video are mine, but rarely used I must admit.
[#wikinews 00:10] <JoiIto> Also, I interact with a lot of MSM journalists and the edges for what I can say etc are stuff that happens 1 on 1
[#wikinews 00:10] <Xirzon> so, we definitely like to use all available tools for rt communication
[#wikinews 00:11] <JoiIto> For instance, I can't imagine John Markoff coming to #wikinews, but he'll give me a heads up via IM if he knows of a story that I might like that he's not going after.
[#wikinews 00:11] <Xirzon> but, I think what we really need is a shared space, so I'd like to follow up on that, too.
[#wikinews 00:11] <Xirzon> a #citizenjournalism channel here on FreeNode might be a start, though that may be too geeky
[#wikinews 00:11] <JoiIto> shared_space++
[#wikinews 00:11] <Amgine> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Instant_Messaging_Wikipedians
[#wikinews 00:11] <Dan100> now it's quietened down a bit, I really liked someone's idea of different Wn bureaus - groups of editors with common interests - who could be contacted
[#wikinews 00:11] <Amgine> This could be set up on Wikinews as well.
[#wikinews 00:11] <alevin> #citizenjournalism++
[#wikinews 00:12] <seanbonner> back, sorry about that, people came into the gallery
[#wikinews 00:12] <Xirzon> the good thing about doing it here on IRC is that it's neutral from the perspective of blogs, wikis, Indymedia, OhMyNews, etc.
[#wikinews 00:12] <Dan100> different IRC channels for each 'bureau', perhaps?
[#wikinews 00:12] <Xirzon> the risk is that it will just degenerate into a huge channel with lots of noise
[#wikinews 00:12] <alevin> start in the same place, with a convention
[#wikinews 00:13] <alevin> telecom: telecom bill filed in texas
[#wikinews 00:13] <JoiIto> or a huge channel with no noise. ;-P
[#wikinews 00:13] <Xirzon> heh
[#wikinews 00:13] JOIN: _sj_
[#wikinews 00:13] <Amgine> Some days there are bots in here from news-type groups as well.
[#wikinews 00:13] <Xirzon> I wonder if it is possible to enforce a policy such as "only talk about things which relate to reporting"
[#wikinews 00:13] <Xirzon> my experience is that IRC is difficult to control :)
[#wikinews 00:13] <Jamesday> Xirzon: not possible and not desirable when you want a community.
[#wikinews 00:13] <Amgine> Heh... #wikipedians Xirzon; it didn't workl
[#wikinews 00:13] <Amgine> .
[#wikinews 00:14] <Jamesday> The off topic discussions are vital community building parts.
[#wikinews 00:14] JOIN: _sjip_
[#wikinews 00:14] <Xirzon> true, but what if you don't want to build a community, but coordinate between the existing ones?
[#wikinews 00:14] <Jamesday> You need friendly relationships there as well.
[#wikinews 00:14] <Jamesday> Wherever humans interact off topic is business:)
[#wikinews 00:14] <Xirzon> someone on ohmynews is reporting on a train accident in south korea and talks to other citizen journalists about it, offers photos, etc.
[#wikinews 00:15] <Jamesday> Hence business lunches and such - all the same general reasoning.
[#wikinews 00:15] <Xirzon> that kind of stuff is what I would like to facilitate
[#wikinews 00:15] <Xirzon> and I think a real-time forum is needed for that, but it may need to be moderated in some way.
[#wikinews 00:16] <Xirzon> so, that's something worth thinking more about. If something starts happening in that field, I'll post it to the p2pj list and maybe we can put a small blurb on Wikinews as well.
[#wikinews 00:16] <Dan100> general question, what kind of topics are commonly covered in blogs?
[#wikinews 00:16] <Dan100> besides IT, of course ;)
[#wikinews 00:16] JOIN: jhb|offline
[#wikinews 00:16] <seanbonner> Dan100: every topic ever thought of
[#wikinews 00:16] <Xirzon> Dan100: ex-boyfriends
[#wikinews 00:16] <JoiIto> why don't you worry about moderation once you need it? I have a feeling getting attention and critical mass are most important... although I think social rules and process is OK, but looking strict may be off-putting
[#wikinews 00:17] <RMacK> dan100: i have a blog devoted entirely to north korea
[#wikinews 00:17] <Dan100> too close to the truth there, Xirzon...
[#wikinews 00:17] <Amgine> Did anyone discuss how to change Wikinews? It is like editing an article: everyone can do it. Just suggest changes: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Water_cooler
[#wikinews 00:17] <seanbonner> That's the whole thing, with something like 7 million blogs, anything you can think of is being talked about
[#wikinews 00:17] <Xirzon> Amgine: can you post a few tutorial links?
[#wikinews 00:17] <Amgine> Sure:
[#wikinews 00:18] <Jamesday> JoiIto, agred. Moderation is mostly about getting and staying out of the way, occasionally dropping hints, when people are actively trying to work together.
[#wikinews 00:18] <Dan100> So what are saying here, we should wait for bloggers to tell us something interesting, or we should have some methods of finding interesting stuff pro-actively?
[#wikinews : 00:18] PART: jhb|offline
[#wikinews 00:18] <Amgine> The article workspace is really the working place for people who edit, contribute, etc. http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Workspace
[#wikinews 00:18] <Xirzon> Dan100: I think we should go out and build that directory of blogs to watch
[#wikinews 00:18] <Amgine> The "Writing an article" article is the first place most of our editors start: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Writing_an_article
[#wikinews 00:18] <Xirzon> and maybe share the load of watching different blogs among Wikinewsies
[#wikinews 00:19] <seanbonner> Dan100: a combo of both, one leads to the other
[#wikinews : 00:19] PART: jill^crux2
[#wikinews 00:19] <Amgine> The content guide discusses what kind of stuff we're particularly interested in: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Content_guide
[#wikinews 00:19] JOIN: mav
[#wikinews 00:19] <Dan100> What platform? A seperate aggregate website, or a simple static list on WN?
[#wikinews 00:19] <seanbonner> Once bloggers know wikinews is interested in what they are doing, they will start sending it your way
[#wikinews 00:19] <pHatidic> Dan100: Right now there are millions of very small blogs so that would be very difficult. However I predict that in the future personal blogs will merge into bigger ones, although that remains to be seen
[#wikinews 00:19] <Xirzon> Dan100: a page on WN is not static ;)
[#wikinews 00:19] JOIN: Rdsmith4
[#wikinews 00:19] <Dan100> well you know what I mean, not showing RSS feeds ;)
[#wikinews 00:20] <Amgine> And the style guide suggests how we'd like it to be presented: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Style_guide
[#wikinews 00:20] <Xirzon> Dan100: I suggest collecting a list of blogs there, and for each blog, people could sign below and indicate that they're watching it
[#wikinews 00:20] <Xirzon> the actual aggregation should happen on the client side
[#wikinews 00:20] <Xirzon> JoiIto: yes, you're probably right, let's grow that shared space, but keep in mind that we may have to moderate later.
[#wikinews 00:20] <seanbonner> A list of blogs won't work
[#wikinews 00:20] <_sj_> joi: I agree that looking too strict would put some people off
[#wikinews 00:20] <Dan100> so pH, we also need a way of waving arms and saying "this is interesting, read me"
[#wikinews 00:20] <Dan100> a two-pronged approach
[#wikinews 00:21] <seanbonner> there's too many, and often the most interesting and crucial info on some specific thing comes from a blog no one has ever heard of before
[#wikinews 00:21] JOIN: jd
[#wikinews 00:21] <Xirzon> seanbonner: well, a sample is still better than not watching the blogs at all
[#wikinews 00:21] <Dan100> Xirzon - interested editors could pick and chose feeds for their own aggregator of choice?
[#wikinews 00:21] <Xirzon> hopefully, important stories will spread into key blogs
[#wikinews 00:21] <seanbonner> That's true, but it should be clear that isn't all inclusive
[#wikinews 00:21] <Amgine> Dan's reporters tools (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Reporter%27s_tools) and the reference desk (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Reference_desk) are very useful
[#wikinews 00:21] <_sj_> it would also be nice to have a system that lets people reading an RSS feed of wikinews, say,
[#wikinews 00:21] <Xirzon> Dan100: yes
[#wikinews 00:21] <_sj_> send a response to a specific diff / rss update
[#wikinews 00:22] <_sj_> with corrections or additions
[#wikinews 00:22] <Dan100> right, just getting things clear in my head
[#wikinews 00:22] <JoiIto> so... one observation: wikipedia and wikipedia markup and just wikis in general are very difficult looking and a barrier to most people. The bloggers you have here today are the committed ones.
[#wikinews 00:22] <Xirzon> generally, we need to think about distinguishing between editorial comments and reader feedback.
[#wikinews 00:22] <Jamesday> Dan100, those interested in a topic would probably be following it - just as I follow inellectual property and free speech legal news.
[#wikinews 00:22] <Dan100> sj, you've lost me, too techy!
[#wikinews 00:22] <_sj_> (or link back to that specific diff)
[#wikinews 00:22] <jkbaumga> what about links in the feed to edit the articles?
[#wikinews 00:22] <alevin> afk, off to 3d
[#wikinews 00:22] <Amgine> I'm trying to interest the devs in ecto, at the moment Joilto
[#wikinews 00:22] <_sj_> jkbaumga: good idea
[#wikinews 00:22] <Dan100> Well yeah Jamesday, it what I use bloglines for
[#wikinews 00:22] <seanbonner> JoiIto: right
[#wikinews 00:22] <JoiIto> I think the committed bloggers can get you some momentum and focus for a bit... but I think we'll need to get over the hump on the first try if we want to jumpstart this collaboration.
[#wikinews 00:22] <Xirzon> there's been some talk about next-generation wiki style discussion systems. there's my http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/LiquidThreads , and Aoineko's WikiForum implementation
[#wikinews 00:22] <IlyaHaykinson> JoiIto: not much harder than textile, though?
[#wikinews 00:23] <seanbonner> My wife is a die hard blogger at this point and still hates wikis
[#wikinews 00:23] <Dan100> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Writing_an_article
[#wikinews 00:23] <Xirzon> both of these would help in improving reader-editor interaction
[#wikinews 00:23] JOIN: sweptbypings_
[#wikinews 00:23] <Dan100> whoops ignore that
[#wikinews 00:23] <Xirzon> seanbonner: what does she hate about wikis?
[#wikinews 00:23] <_sj_> sean :-)
[#wikinews 00:23] <seanbonner> brb
[#wikinews 00:23] <Amgine> seanbonner: Wikis are definitely not the solution for everything.
[#wikinews 00:23] <Dan100> http://www.bloglines.com/public/Dan100 is my collection of feeds
[#wikinews 00:23] <Amgine> But they do rather well at what they do.
[#wikinews 00:23] <jwales> That's like hating kittens!
[#wikinews 00:24] <_sj_> dan100: I have a blog primarily about communication channels
[#wikinews 00:24] <JoiIto> I think if we can get even just the bloggers in this channel to post something today about how wikinews is important and how we are going to participate and "how everyone who misses this will regret it." ;-)
[#wikinews 00:24] <jwales> Or ice cream sandwiches *for free* on a hot summer day!
[#wikinews 00:24] <Amgine> jwales: kittens make awful sails.
[#wikinews 00:24] <Jamesday> most likely she hasn't seen a wiki with teh sort of really powerful organising tools which MediaWiki has. Maybe also hasn't seen the power of cooperation in a wiki.
[#wikinews 00:24] <JoiIto> that would be another thing. but I'd like to come away with something simple everyone who is interested can do to participate, even if this means just reading something
[#wikinews 00:24] <Dan100> So we could build a page of good blogs covering lots of topics, that individuals could use to build their own sets of feeds?
[#wikinews 00:24] <Xirzon> JoiIto: besides that, I would also like to invite all bloggers to play around with Wikinews and the wiki format.
[#wikinews 00:24] <_sj_> as for different wikipedia communities,
[#wikinews 00:25] <JoiIto> Xirzon, right. but my point exactly. Most bloggers who have great blogs don't have time to "play around"
[#wikinews 00:25] <_sj_> there are certainly lists of wikipedia IM names... if only as side-aspects of other groups of wikipedians (Say on LJ(
[#wikinews 00:25] <Xirzon> similarly, I hope that people who have so far not looked seriously at blogs will take a closer look at the various communities. technorati.com 's top 100 is a good starting point
[#wikinews 00:25] <Amgine> I'd like the bloggers to help me add tools for them to Wikinews.
[#wikinews 00:25] <JoiIto> I can't even get Dan Farber to switch from a mailing list to a blog even though I've tried VERY hard
[#wikinews 00:25] <jkbaumga> JoiIto that's why I'm here report back to my readers about Wikinews (and other reasons, too, of course)
[#wikinews 00:25] <JoiIto> most successful online voices get stuck in their own style.
[#wikinews 00:25] <_sj_> And only a teeny tiny fraction of active wikipedians have ever used irc :-)
[#wikinews 00:25] <RMacK> another way to get bloggers interested is for wikinews stories to trackback to relevant blog posts - or the ones used as source material
[#wikinews 00:25] <_sj_> so I wonder what other existing channels there are, and whether reaching out to those groups would change the makeup of active wikinews participants
[#wikinews 00:26] <Dan100> irc is more well-known on WN has it's linked to on every page
[#wikinews 00:26] <Xirzon> _sj_: true, but e.g. the entire board of trustees uses it on a regular basis
[#wikinews 00:26] <Amgine> RMacK: That is already being done. At least, I do that.
[#wikinews 00:26] <Jamesday> JoiIto, what about their readers? Those have interest in the topic and I assume a desire to organise and summarise hte information - and presumably benefit from collective work doing so.
[#wikinews 00:26] <Xirzon> so, Wikimedia is definitely very IRC-centric
[#wikinews 00:26] <jkbaumga> buzz about Wikinews is also needed I'm still encountering people who have never heard of Wikinews, Wikipedia, wikis
[#wikinews 00:26] <JoiIto> You should reach out to mailing lists... or more simply, forward relevant articles by hand to relevant mailing lists with links to wikinews
[#wikinews 00:26] <JoiIto> you'll get the readers at least
[#wikinews 00:26] <Amgine> Each article includes a section of sources, with direct links to the sourced articles/blog entries/etc.
[#wikinews 00:26] <Dan100> What does a track-back entail? Just posting a certain URL?
[#wikinews 00:26] <Xirzon> jkbaumga: yes. any help in the department of creating buzz is greatly appreciated :)
[#wikinews 00:27] <JoiIto> there is a protocol to send a notice that you've blogged about a particular thing at a particular link
[#wikinews 00:27] <jwales> mmm, let's spam mailing lists of bloggers. :-) It worked to get RMack here at least. ;-)
[#wikinews 00:27] <JoiIto> GNU Free Documentation License
[#wikinews 00:27] <JoiIto> oops
[#wikinews 00:27] <JoiIto> http://www.movabletype.org/trackback/beginners/
[#wikinews 00:27] <RMacK> jwales, :-)
[#wikinews 00:27] <Xirzon> what I think will happen is that blogging software will increasingly incorporate wiki-style editing features like revision histories and diffs,
[#wikinews 00:27] <Dan100> ta Joi
[#wikinews 00:27] <Xirzon> and wikis will incorporate blog features like chronological display of pages, and RSS feeds
[#wikinews 00:28] <Xirzon> so I think in the future the distinction between blogs and wikis might go away
[#wikinews 00:28] <Amgine> No, I invited RMacK?
[#wikinews 00:28] <Amgine> <goes back to list>
[#wikinews 00:28] <JoiIto> btw, http://www.omidyar.net/ Omidyar Network is an interesting combination of discussion forums and wikis... not perfect yet, but good start
[#wikinews 00:28] <Xirzon> and the real question may be which software will be the first to provide a true synthesis of blogging and wiki editing
[#wikinews 00:28] <Xirzon> thanks for the link, Joi. will take a look.
[#wikinews 00:29] <JoiIto> I spammed every smart person I knew via IM just before it started
[#wikinews 00:29] <Amgine> Oy, Xirzon...
[#wikinews 00:29] <Amgine> <chuckle>
[#wikinews 00:29] <Dan100> So trackbacks need specific software on the servers to function?
[#wikinews 00:29] <JoiIto> I need a "smart person" category for my news reader and IM...
[#wikinews 00:29] <Jamesday> Xirzon: MediaWiki is likely to be the answer. It has ver large critical mass and ti's close to doing that already.
[#wikinews 00:30] <JoiIto> Dan100, "software" is a bit overstated. You can easily write a script to take trackbacks.
[#wikinews 00:30] <Jamesday> However, searches for bliki will turn up existing projects
[#wikinews 00:30] <RMacK> xirzon: a tool that combines rss, trackbacks, revision histories, diffs, group/open editing etc. would be truley incredible.
[#wikinews 00:30] <Xirzon> Jamesday: I hope so. in that case, Wikinews is in an ideal position :)
[#wikinews 00:30] <pHatidic> JoiIto: Bayesian intelligence filter?
[#wikinews 00:30] <JoiIto> ;-)
[#wikinews 00:30] <Dan100> sorry for the dumbass questions, I'm just trying to establish what's currently possible/what needs to be done to make it happen
[#wikinews 00:30] <Xirzon> RMacK: alas, if you give a good developer that list of features, you would probably not get the kind of tool you want to use :). usability is key as well, and takes a long time to evolve
[#wikinews 00:31] <RMacK> usability+++
[#wikinews 00:31] <Amgine> RMacK: We're missing useable rss, and trackbacks.
[#wikinews 00:31] <JoiIto> np dan. I think someone should be able to whip up a trackback plugin for wikinews in a few hours if they knew what they were doing.
[#wikinews 00:31] <RMacK> i gotta run but this has been truly truly fab. hope we can do this regularly. bye!! :-) :-) :-)
[#wikinews 00:31] <Xirzon> good bye, rebecca
[#wikinews 00:31] <Dan100> ah I see - so we need someone to write that script, then submit it has a 'bug' (like 1411?)
[#wikinews 00:31] <Amgine> <raises hand> I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm willing to give it a shot if someone can point me at a resource.
[#wikinews 00:31] <Xirzon> thanks for coming!
[#wikinews 00:31] Action: *JoiIto waves at RMacK
[#wikinews 00:32] <Dan100> bye!
[#wikinews 00:32] <Amgine> Yes, Dan100
[#wikinews 00:32] JOIN: ambi2
[#wikinews 00:32] <Jamesday> RMacK, there's a tool in the pending mediawiki software release whcih sends email notifications when any monitored page changes. Could be made a custom RSS feed as well, if desired.
[#wikinews 00:32] <Amgine> 'lo ambi2
[#wikinews 00:32] <Dan100> who's going to volunteer then :) ( I can't code)
[#wikinews 00:32] <Jamesday> RSS is very variable - need to sort out what you want the feed to contain.
[#wikinews 00:32] <Dan100> RSS is a bit of a non-starter right now, it seems
[#wikinews 00:32] <Amgine> I would rather tackle the trackback, first.
[#wikinews 00:33] <Dan100> Amgine, I agree
[#wikinews 00:33] <Amgine> I have the RSS here, and it will take a while to understand.
[#wikinews 00:33] <Jamesday> AMgine, see the enotif featue because it has much of what RSS feeds need, I expect.
[#wikinews 00:33] JOIN: sannse
[#wikinews 00:33] <jibot> sannse is not a fan of jibot, but maybe she will like him in time and a regular in #wikimedia
[#wikinews 00:33] <Amgine> Yes, I already have that one, too.
[#wikinews 00:33] <JoiIto> Amgine, I suggest you read the definitive source on trackbacks
[#wikinews 00:33] <JoiIto> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trackback
[#wikinews 00:33] JOIN: carlb
[#wikinews 00:33] <Amgine> <raise eyebrow @ definitive>
[#wikinews 00:33] JOIN: Matthew
[#wikinews 00:34] <Xirzon> OK, we've been going on for over 90 minutes. we've covered everything on the agenda, I think, and I'll just leave the discussion open now. feel free to stay as long as you want :)
[#wikinews 00:34] <Jamesday> Dan100, RSS is a technical challenge but doable enough. Challenge only because of teh volume of hits it generates - mandates very careful design for cachability so Squids serve all hits.
[#wikinews 00:34] <Dan100> Well, it would be good if we could formulate some kind of plan to move forwards with...
[#wikinews 00:34] <Amgine> Perfect, Joilto!
[#wikinews 00:34] <Xirzon> this channel is always there, by the way, so if you want to keep up to date on what's going on, please don't hesitate to join
[#wikinews 00:34] <Jamesday> If you can RSS-related technical blogs you'll find much discussion of just how unpleasant RSS is for servers.
[#wikinews 00:35] <Dan100> James, I think the problem is deciding what to put into an RSS feed, and when an article is ready for that
[#wikinews 00:35] <JoiIto> I still like the idea of pushing articles out to a blog that deals with the RSS... ;-) Bloggers would understand that interface better...
[#wikinews 00:35] <JoiIto> Then you can work on trying to integrate them more and more
[#wikinews 00:35] <Dan100> There's more policy issues than technical, I believe
[#wikinews : 00:35] PART: jd
[#wikinews 00:35] <Dan100> We don't want junk going out the door, only quality
[#wikinews 00:35] <Jamesday> Dan100, right.
[#wikinews 00:35] <JoiIto> I think square brackets [] give bloggers wikinoia
[#wikinews 00:35] <Amgine> Dan100: that is actually easier than the technical hurdles.
[#wikinews 00:35] <Jamesday> And personal preferences will vary and need to be considered (and for the site, caching is 95% of the problem)
[#wikinews 00:36] <Jamesday> JoiIto, when would you like the push to happen?
[#wikinews 00:36] <Jamesday> No changes for 30 minutes?
[#wikinews 00:36] <JoiIto> Good point jamesday
[#wikinews 00:36] <Jamesday> Or truste person clickin ga release link?
[#wikinews 00:36] <JoiIto> Maybe have editors
[#wikinews 00:36] <JoiIto> editors in different time zones
[#wikinews 00:36] <Dan100> We could do it manually
[#wikinews 00:37] <JoiIto> they push snapshots out manually
[#wikinews 00:37] <Jamesday> That works
[#wikinews 00:37] <Amgine> At the moment Wikinews trafffic is hovering around 80,000... what would RSS do to that?
[#wikinews 00:37] <Dan100> so, we need a blog of Latest news essentially, so trackbacks and stuff work and it generates a public-consumption feed, right?
[#wikinews 00:37] <Jamesday> For actual press releases it's probably mandatory.
[#wikinews 00:37] <JoiIto> they need to judge the importance of timing over accuracy
[#wikinews 00:38] <jkbaumga> I'm one of the people who secretly hopes Wikinews, Wikipedia will do more with feeds, but I don't want a news article released before it's ready
[#wikinews 00:38] <Amgine> Dan100: That isn't a problem; I can do that easy.
[#wikinews 00:38] <jkbaumga> many feed readers won't go back to visit the source when they see it in their aggregator
[#wikinews 00:38] <JoiIto> And I would suggest the editor's name goes on the article as the "publisher" of the article so they feel somewhat responsible, but maybe that's not the wikiway
[#wikinews 00:38] <Jamesday> Amgine, RSS would cause very high surge traffic as poor RSS clients all try to hit the server on the hour.
[#wikinews 00:38] <Dan100> what's not a problem?
[#wikinews 00:38] <jkbaumga> if something changes, especially if it's a major change, it might get missed
[#wikinews 00:38] <seanbonner> OK, back. Sorry about running off I'm at the gallery open for business right now. What did I miss? ;)
[#wikinews 00:38] <Jamesday> That is why it is absolutely critical that the hits be served from cache.
[#wikinews 00:39] <IlyaHaykinson> JoiIto: no, definitely not the wiki way: the history for almost any article will show a good half-dozen "editors"
[#wikinews 00:39] <JoiIto> RSS is easy to cache.
[#wikinews 00:39] <Amgine> building the blog of latest news, Dan100
[#wikinews 00:39] <Jamesday> It's caused pain for places like Yahoo already, so we need to be prepared for that pain.
[#wikinews 00:39] <Amgine> But Jamesday, wouldn't that also drop the clickthrough traffic?
[#wikinews 00:39] <Jamesday> Amgine, no.
[#wikinews : 00:39] PART: Rdsmith4
[#wikinews 00:39] <Dan100> OK, so what needs to be done to get that up and running, Amgine?
[#wikinews 00:39] <JoiIto> A lot of people clickthru after reading an RSS feed
[#wikinews 00:39] <Amgine> <considers this>
[#wikinews 00:39] <ambi2> Jamesday: Would you be able to do a sockpuppet check for us?
[#wikinews 00:39] <ambi2> (or anyone else lurking)
[#wikinews 00:40] <Jamesday> The current architecture is page edits, cache flushed, next view puts it back in the cache, all later views are from cache until it is changed again
[#wikinews 00:40] <Amgine> Dan100: {{CURRENTDAY-1}}, {{CURRENTDAY-2}}
[#wikinews 00:40] <Jamesday> ambi2, ask in #mediawiki please.
[#wikinews 00:40] <Dan100> me don't understand :(
[#wikinews : 00:40] PART: ambi2
[#wikinews 00:41] <Amgine> I can set up an article to automate the latest news. The problem is bloggers want tagged news.
[#wikinews 00:41] <_sj_> joi: why do you need one name on the article?
[#wikinews 00:41] <_sj_> why not list all the major editors' names?
[#wikinews 00:41] <_sj_> most wikinews stories would have looong bylines, but that's kind of the point..
[#wikinews 00:41] <Dan100> tagging, right, so what's the hurdles with that
[#wikinews 00:42] <pHatidic> tagging meaning trackback?
[#wikinews 00:42] <jwales> I doubt if wikinews should have bylines.
[#wikinews 00:42] <jwales> Maybe in some rare cases.
[#wikinews 00:42] <Amgine> Agree jwales
[#wikinews 00:42] <jwales> But it's pretty unwiki.
[#wikinews 00:42] <_sj_> well, the explicit requirement of GFDL is basically a full byline.
[#wikinews 00:42] <Dan100> I mean we could go and set up a manually updated blog equivalent of Latest news right now
[#wikinews 00:42] <_sj_> why would this be bad for the news?
[#wikinews 00:42] <Xirzon> jwales: I think some argments could be made in favor of it, but it would be very difficult to select from the history who to add
[#wikinews 00:42] <Amgine> Dan100: each person who connects for a feed will need a special thread run.
[#wikinews 00:42] <_sj_> people who *don't* want to be in such a list could edit anonymously.
[#wikinews 00:43] <Amgine> As for tagging, it's more like categories, pHatidic.
[#wikinews 00:43] <JoiIto> sj : just so that people know who pushed the article out
[#wikinews 00:43] <Dan100> it's not really important though
[#wikinews 00:43] <_sj_> joi: oh, I see... the person making the decision that it should go under this particular tag/ on this list
[#wikinews 00:43] <JoiIto> maybe not important, but it's sort of having editors who have shifts or areas of expertise who are authorized to "push"
[#wikinews 00:43] Action: *_sj_ blues sannse
[#wikinews 00:43] <Dan100> the deal is - was it ready or not?
[#wikinews 00:43] <jwales> JoiIto: how is that helpful? If we have a proper process for getting stuff into the RSS feed, it's as unimportant to know as it is to know how the feature articles are chosen at wikipedia for example.
[#wikinews 00:43] JOIN: TheCheat
[#wikinews 00:43] <_sj_> joi: I see what you mean.
[#wikinews 00:44] <Dan100> Anyone could push one out though :/
[#wikinews 00:44] <JoiIto> yes, I meant if you were building a blog of particular articles.
[#wikinews 00:44] <JoiIto> The editors would be contributors to the blog, using wikinews as the fodder
[#wikinews 00:44] <_sj_> jwales: things like FA take a week's voting to decide.
[#wikinews : 00:44] PART: TheCheat
[#wikinews 00:44] <Dan100> We could be falling back into the trap of 'review processes' etc we had in 2004 - which failed miserably
[#wikinews 00:44] <JoiIto> this could, in a way, address the "authority" issue too if those editors were the final reviewers...
[#wikinews 00:44] <_sj_> this would be muuch less community-consensus and more a small group of people or one person's decision of what version to push.
[#wikinews 00:44] <jwales> eek
[#wikinews 00:44] <JoiIto> just thinking out loud here...
[#wikinews 00:45] <JoiIto> sj : true
[#wikinews 00:45] <jwales> sj: No, I didn't mean to suggest we need an FA-style process
[#wikinews 00:45] <JoiIto> Or... we could have it as a side project. Maybe get bloggers to do it.
[#wikinews 00:45] <Jamesday> How do you propose to remove the unremovable legal right to be associated with their work?
[#wikinews 00:45] <_sj_> which isn't to say that bylines are the right solution... but I for one would like my rss feed to include
[#wikinews 00:45] <_sj_> a full list of people who have made non-minor edits to that article.
[#wikinews 00:45] <Amgine> I still think it should be left on the wikinews, despite the increased server drag.
[#wikinews 00:45] <jwales> Jamesday: ? I'm not proposing that at all.
[#wikinews 00:45] <Jamesday> Assuming wikinews is not to be a US-only project but operates in places where that right exists?
[#wikinews 00:45] <JoiIto> A group blog that just takes wikinews articles and plops them on the blog based on the members of the blogs impressions of what is important.
[#wikinews 00:46] <Jamesday> Bylines are the way that's traditionally done in this area - but it's quite tough for wikinews systems unless the number of active writers fora piece is relatively small.
[#wikinews 00:46] <jwales> "byline" implies a lot more than the legal right, it implies prominent placement, attribution of a particular kind.
[#wikinews 00:46] <jwales> At least in the way I meant to be using the term.
[#wikinews 00:46] <_sj_> btw, I really hope we get to discuss the difference in reliability among different media:
[#wikinews 00:46] <Amgine> It's actually somewhat rare, Jamesday, for a wikinews article to have more the 3-4 ediotrs.
[#wikinews 00:46] <_sj_> video is harder to fake than audio and photos, which are harder to fake than text
[#wikinews 00:46] <_sj_> and are therefore naturally more npov, in some sense...
[#wikinews 00:47] <JoiIto> I would disagree sj
[#wikinews 00:47] <Jamesday> Thanks for clarifying - then shuld be there for most of the stories with a single or few authors IMO
[#wikinews 00:47] <JoiIto> video just appears to be more NPOV
[#wikinews 00:47] <JoiIto> but can be edited to be very POV
[#wikinews 00:47] <Dan100> Amignes right, it's more like one or two
[#wikinews 00:47] <_sj_> "in some sense"
[#wikinews 00:47] <JoiIto> but appears more NPOV so more dangerous
[#wikinews 00:47] <Jamesday> Amgine, then established pres practice there is to credit primary and say who else contributed.
[#wikinews 00:47] <_sj_> well, perhaps you're right
[#wikinews 00:47] <Jamesday> That way you acan end up judging sources
[#wikinews 00:47] <JoiIto> like the Dean "scream"
[#wikinews 00:47] <Dan100> James, but doesn't the 'history' page do that?
[#wikinews 00:47] <Amgine> Well, byline also specifically mentions the date, and the primary location. In Journalism at least.
[#wikinews 00:48] <jkbaumga> isn't there metadata on the articles indicating who's been editing them?
[#wikinews 00:48] <_sj_> but the Dean sream,
[#wikinews 00:48] <_sj_> ,whatever yousay about it,
[#wikinews 00:48] <JoiIto> He didn't scream. It was his directional mic amplifying his voice. Then TV showed it OVER and OVER and now people think it's true
[#wikinews 00:48] <_sj_> was real audio, not doctored.
[#wikinews 00:48] Action: *seanbonner hearts the Dean Scream
[#wikinews 00:48] <_sj_> form the point of view of the wikines community
[#wikinews 00:48] <Jamesday> Wouldn't want it for a shared tracking type page, perhaps - but a person who was present at an event and writes the story shoul be credited IMO.
[#wikinews 00:48] <JoiIto> That's my point
[#wikinews 00:48] <jkbaumga> what about adding that to the feed, even hidden, to appease _sj_?
[#wikinews 00:48] <Amgine> It was doctored, sj.
[#wikinews 00:48] <_sj_> which would be trying to npov everything,
[#wikinews 00:48] <Jamesday> Dan100, no the history page doesn't do that - it hides that.
[#wikinews 00:48] <Dan100> elaborate
[#wikinews 00:48] <Dan100> how does it 'hide' it?
[#wikinews 00:48] <_sj_> at least they could be more confident that the secondary or primary source material they were working with was in fact related to the subject...
[#wikinews 00:48] <JoiIto> It COMPLETELY doesn't represent the reality of the situation where he was trying to shout over a huge noisy crowd. Just taking his voice out of context like that was just evil.
[#wikinews 00:48] <_sj_> amgine: hmm.
[#wikinews 00:49] <JoiIto> and all the networks apologized afterwards, but the apologies were only mentioned briefly
[#wikinews 00:49] <seanbonner> JoiIto: as usual
[#wikinews 00:49] <Dan100> what the hell is the Dean scream?!
[#wikinews 00:49] <Amgine> <nod>
[#wikinews 00:49] <_sj_> jkbaumga: yes, we definitely have metadata about who has edited an article.
[#wikinews 00:49] <_sj_> right now we don't keep it all in an easy-to-reach format
[#wikinews 00:49] <_sj_> you have to look through the whole history of an article
[#wikinews 00:49] <_sj_> (which can be hard on the db)
[#wikinews 00:49] <_sj_> to extract the list of editors, afaik.
[#wikinews 00:49] <Amgine> It killed Howard Dean's chance to win Iowa, though he was likely the Dem candidate at the time Dan100
[#wikinews 00:49] <JoiIto> Dan100, Howard Dean was shouting over a crowd in Iowa and he sounded liked a lunatic. The networks played the scene over and over again until everyone thought he was alunatic
[#wikinews 00:50] <pHatidic> Amgine: it was after iowa :)
[#wikinews 00:50] <Dan100> lol, can't remember that making the news here (UK) :)
[#wikinews 00:50] <Amgine> <raise eyebrow and goes to look>
[#wikinews 00:50] <seanbonner> but he at least made a funny rental car ad later on because of it
[#wikinews 00:50] <Dan100> I always did wonder what happened to Dean though
[#wikinews 00:50] <carlb> how many different roles are there so far?
[#wikinews 00:50] <Dan100> anyway we're drifting off topic here
[#wikinews 00:50] <JoiIto> He's going to be Chariman of the Democratic Party soon though.
[#wikinews 00:50] <_sj_> Dean's about to become dnc chair,that's what happened...
[#wikinews 00:50] <JoiIto> right
[#wikinews 00:50] <_sj_> and promising not to run for pres :)
[#wikinews 00:50] <carlb> in wikinews?
[#wikinews 00:51] <_sj_> yes, how many roles?
[#wikinews 00:51] <Dan100> carlb, what do you mean exactly?
[#wikinews 00:51] <_sj_> there are certainly copyeditors, fact-checkers, new-story-breakers...
[#wikinews 00:51] <_sj_> translators? not so many yet, butyes
[#wikinews 00:51] <carlb> that is what I mean
[#wikinews 00:51] <Amgine> <nod at pHatidic> It was his concession in Iowa. You're right.
[#wikinews 00:51] <Dan100> Well, I mainly create articles
[#wikinews 00:51] <Jamesday> Dan100, look at newspaper. See how reporters are credited. Now move all of those reporter credits to the back page of the newspaper. History works like that move to back page.
[#wikinews 00:51] <sweptbypings_> sj: all the editors look the same from a software POV, though
[#wikinews 00:52] <Dan100> Occasionally I go through other articles checking that everything is referenced, if it isn't I remove it
[#wikinews 00:52] <JoiIto> So I'm going to be running out of time soon, but I need something to write about on my blog about this conversation for this to have been worth my time... what is the "take away" ;-)
[#wikinews 00:52] <Jamesday> _sj_, to get list of authors for an article is currently entirely impractical for an article with significant (tens or hundreds of thoussands) of revisions. Some improvements coming in that area.
[#wikinews 00:52] <Dan100> I frequently hunt down source references for other articles (eg Iraq poll results, transcripts of Blairs speeches)
[#wikinews 00:52] <Dan100> so there's a huuuge variety of roles
[#wikinews 00:53] <Dan100> all constantly changing
[#wikinews 00:53] <Jamesday> Dan100, please stop removing things without references - there are actually articles written by real experts around.
[#wikinews 00:53] <seanbonner> JoiIto: write something "productive" and I'll quote you. ;)
[#wikinews 00:53] <jwales> the takeaway: wikinews rocks! bloggers are going to flock to it in droves!
[#wikinews 00:53] <Dan100> We're talking about WN here, not WP, James
[#wikinews 00:53] <carlb> is there a plan to create permission structure beyond editor and non-editor on wikinews? (where do I go for technical info)
[#wikinews 00:53] <Jamesday> You may not know the facts, but there are authors who do and don't need to cite the obvious things in their field.
[#wikinews 00:53] <_sj_> joi: wikinews would love to 'ping' you.
[#wikinews 00:53] <_sj_> I'll ping you mine if you'll ping me yours...
[#wikinews 00:53] <Amgine> There is no non-editor, carlb
[#wikinews 00:54] <Dan100> on WN, it is a requirement that everything be referenced
[#wikinews 00:54] <jkbaumga> JoiIto isn't the take away that we need to blog about Wikinews ; )
[#wikinews 00:54] <sweptbypings_> non-editor = reader
[#wikinews 00:54] <Jamesday> Dan100, same applies
[#wikinews 00:54] <Amgine> Some people edit, some people read.
[#wikinews 00:54] <Dan100> nope.
[#wikinews 00:54] <Amgine> Most do both.
[#wikinews 00:54] <seanbonner> I guess just that wikinews wants to work with bloggers
[#wikinews 00:54] <carlb> but there is control over what shows up on the front page right
[#wikinews 00:54] <carlb> ?
[#wikinews 00:54] <JoiIto> yes...but what to blog. ;-)
[#wikinews 00:54] <Jamesday> Dan100, sounds as though you are trig to make things really annoying for those who know a subject and dont' need the obvious cited.
[#wikinews 00:54] <_sj_> carl: no control, no
[#wikinews 00:54] <seanbonner> and that the co-working can lead to better things for all
[#wikinews 00:55] <_sj_> other than that, only some people are interested in editing it :)
[#wikinews 00:55] <JoiIto> Is there a wikinews page about blogs and wikinews?
[#wikinews 00:55] <Amgine> Not what you think of as a control structure. People remove what probably shouldn't be there, and add what should carlb
[#wikinews 00:55] <_sj_> there's a meta page about it.
[#wikinews 00:55] <sweptbypings_> sj: I can't edit the format of the front page.
[#wikinews 00:55] <seanbonner> link?
[#wikinews 00:55] <carlb> I have seen "locked" articles in the Wikipedia
[#wikinews 00:55] <carlb> (because they are on the front page)
[#wikinews 00:55] <Dan100> On WN deal in facts, facts that have just occured. No-one 'knows' things without learning them, and they can post where they learnt them
[#wikinews 00:55] <_sj_> joi: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews_and_Blogs
[#wikinews 00:55] <sweptbypings_> On WN, you can edit articles on the front page, but not the format of the page.
[#wikinews 00:56] <JoiIto> thanks sj
[#wikinews 00:56] <jwales> I have to run now...
[#wikinews 00:56] <Amgine> The front page format is locked, but is made up of "templates" which anyone can edit. there are links to edit them on the front page.
[#wikinews 00:56] <Xirzon> bye jimbo
[#wikinews 00:56] <Xirzon> thanks for coming
[#wikinews 00:56] <JoiIto> Do you have anything in particular that I should put in the blog post?
[#wikinews 00:56] <JoiIto> see ya jimbo?
[#wikinews 00:56] <jwales> yes
[#wikinews 00:56] <jwales> later!
[#wikinews :"Leaving" 00:56] PART: jwales
[#wikinews 00:56] <JoiIto> looking for people to write a plugin for trackback?
[#wikinews 00:56] <_sj_> yes.
[#wikinews 00:56] <_sj_> a MW extension...
[#wikinews 00:56] <seanbonner> perhaps the log of this should be posted to that meta-page?
[#wikinews 00:56] <Amgine> And to decide what an RSS feed for WN should look like.
[#wikinews 00:57] <Jamesday> Amgine, that's hopefully out of date info - people have been both unhappy about goatce.cs appearing on the main page and unwilling to protect it so it can't happen.
[#wikinews 00:57] <JoiIto> Yes. I was going to link to the chat page, the log and that metapage
[#wikinews 00:57] <Amgine> There is a log.
[#wikinews 00:57] <Amgine> http://scireview.de/wiki/channel.log
[#wikinews 00:57] <Amgine> Jamesday, I'm refering to Wikinews, not wikipedia
[#wikinews 00:57] <Xirzon> I'll turn the log off in a few minutes.
[#wikinews 00:58] <pHatidic> Jamesday: Is it possible just to write a filter to block that one URL?
[#wikinews 00:58] <Dan100> James, to elaborate, the problem is that a WN article is only of wide interest for a matter of hours. We need to make sure what we're saying in that time is true. For that to be done, things have to be referenced. We can't just trust people, as they could be totally wrong.
[#wikinews 00:58] <Jamesday> Amgine, same is going to apply there - choice betwen goatse.cx and page protection
[#wikinews 00:58] <Jamesday> Might as well start in on the discussion now.
[#wikinews 00:58] <Xirzon> Amgine: could you put the log on meta with a cutoff point of 0:00 UTC
[#wikinews 00:58] <Amgine> <grin> I'm sure it is happening.
[#wikinews 00:58] <Jamesday> Dan100, not a very useful way to proceed in professional areas.
[#wikinews 00:58] <Amgine> Okay, Xirzon'
[#wikinews 00:58] <Xirzon> thanks
[#wikinews 00:59] <Dan100> but that's how it is
[#wikinews :"/join #real_life" 00:59] PART: elian
[#wikinews 00:59] <Xirzon> again, thanks to all for coming.
[#wikinews 00:59] <carlb> why a trackback plugin
[#wikinews 00:59] <Jamesday> What you know about things is unlikely to accurately reflect what interested professional readers knwo about it and need cited.
[#wikinews 00:59] <seanbonner> thanks for having us
[#wikinews 00:59] <Xirzon> special thanks to Amgine for working on the invitations.
[#wikinews 00:59] <carlb> there are publishing options
[#wikinews : 00:59] PART: u119
[#wikinews 00:59] <Xirzon> and to Joi for getting some more people to attend
[#wikinews 00:59] <Dan100> What we have right now is a general interest site
[#wikinews 00:59] <Xirzon> and to Jimmy and Angela for blogging about it :)
[#wikinews 00:59] <Amgine> carlb: the trackback plug seemed to be widely popular here today.
[#wikinews 00:59] <_sj_> thanks Xirzon :-)
[#wikinews 01:00] <Dan100> It's very different to WP, we have little time
[#wikinews 01:00] <Amgine> And _sj_ for bringing in people kicking and screaming!
[#wikinews 01:00] <Dan100> trackback script=good :)
[#wikinews 01:00] <_sj_> what are the publishing options, carl?
[#wikinews 01:00] <seanbonner> Jamesday: playing devils advocate here - if I'm a recognized expert in a field, and many other articles cite me as the reference, and I post something, is it required that I cite my reference? Even it's it's something I wrote?
[#wikinews 01:00] Action: *JoiIto goes off to blog about this conversation
[#wikinews 01:00] <Amgine> Speaking of which, has anyone replaced the lead article? Isn't anything happening today?
[#wikinews 01:00] <Dan100> Amgine, ;)
[#wikinews 01:00] <IlyaHaykinson> there's been one edit since the chat started :)
[#wikinews 01:01] JOIN: bobwenko
[#wikinews 01:01] <IlyaHaykinson> and it wasn't the lead
[#wikinews 01:01] <seanbonner> I'm off too, will blog about it shortly
[#wikinews 01:01] <Dan100> Iiya is dangerously close to the truth - we've had a lovely big discussion here tonight
[#wikinews 01:01] <Amgine> Okay you lazy journalists... We need a new lead article. Who can get one done soonest!
[#wikinews 01:01] <Dan100> but really, we have very little content creation going on :(
[#wikinews : 01:01] PART: sannse
[#wikinews 01:02] <Amgine> Remember: International interest, well written, and a good graphic!
[#wikinews 01:02] <_sj_> so... how about relying on biased news sources for content?
[#wikinews 01:03] <_sj_> I know the meeting's over and everyone's gone home,
[#wikinews 01:03] <_sj_> so now I can wonder about this.
[#wikinews 01:03] <Amgine> No... people will continue to discuss for hours.
[#wikinews 01:03] <_sj_> Is it okay to construct a news article from a set of biased sources?
[#wikinews 01:03] <_sj_> say you're writing about a new abortion debate
[#wikinews 01:03] <Dan100> yeah, of course
[#wikinews 01:03] <_sj_> and most of your sources are higly slanted.
[#wikinews 01:03] <Dan100> just make sure it ends up NPOV
[#wikinews 01:04] <Amgine> Which means, basically, giving all biases an ascription, and keeping your own to yourself.
[#wikinews 01:04] <Dan100> but really, it's not a big issue - when something happens (eg a new anti-abortion bill), there's who's doing it and stuff, but there isn't much room for PoV really
[#wikinews 01:04] <Amgine> _sj_ is the googlish cgi going to remain there?
[#wikinews 01:04] <_sj_> Amgine: yes.
[#wikinews 01:05] <_sj_> that cgi is dedicated to wikinews for the nonce
[#wikinews 01:05] <_sj_> how many people came via that?
[#wikinews 01:05] Action: *_sj_ looks for a show of hands
[#wikinews 01:05] <_sj_> maybe just the two early visitors?
[#wikinews 01:05] <Dan100> wuh?
[#wikinews 01:06] <Amgine> No, there were more than that.... I remember the address flying by a few times.
[#wikinews 01:06] <Dan100> did I miss something? :)
[#wikinews 01:06] <Amgine> And about 5 earlier today.
[#wikinews :"Leaving" 01:06] PART: yannf
[#wikinews 01:06] <_sj_> great.
[#wikinews 01:06] JOIN: Guest
[#wikinews 01:06] <_sj_> I really do want to talk about multimedia. So if nobody minds...
[#wikinews 01:06] <_sj_> what about video?
[#wikinews 01:06] <_sj_> joi says it's easy to fake, or bias.
[#wikinews 01:07] <_sj_> what will we do when instead of NPOV'ing a list of 15 text sources,
[#wikinews 01:07] <_sj_> we have one video source
[#wikinews 01:07] <_sj_> and don't know whether or not to trust it?
[#wikinews 01:07] <Dan100> you know I'm struggling to think of something where that could become critical
[#wikinews 01:07] <_sj_> high density information, rarer in the real world, rarely timestamped or GPS-location-stamped so it's hard to verify the video has anything to do with the article in question
[#wikinews 01:07] <_sj_> a riot?
[#wikinews 01:07] <Amgine> We can only ascribe the source, sj.
[#wikinews 01:07] <_sj_> "police brutality!"
[#wikinews 01:08] <_sj_> [shows a video from some other riot]
[#wikinews 01:08] <Dan100> ah that's a good example!
[#wikinews 01:08] <Dan100> yes, I see what you mean
[#wikinews 01:08] <_sj_> amgine, but do we include it?
[#wikinews 01:08] <_sj_> if we include video, that totally changes the takeaway of readersr.
[#wikinews 01:08] <Amgine> You can include it as a source, not as the article.
[#wikinews 01:08] <_sj_> even linking to video and suggesting that A says it's relevant...
[#wikinews 01:08] Action: *jkbaumga ponders group editing of a video
[#wikinews 01:09] <Dan100> I can't imagine we'd ever have the server capability to host videp
[#wikinews 01:09] <Amgine> There has been efforts to build a group-edit "top of the hour" type of broad cast.
[#wikinews 01:09] <IlyaHaykinson> i was actually recently thinking about group-edited audio
[#wikinews 01:09] <Amgine> And one user is talking about podcasting a daily video talking head in theora.
[#wikinews 01:09] <carlb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sousveillance (related to individual video capture)
[#wikinews 01:09] <IlyaHaykinson> it's entirely possible to have little audio submissions that all get strung together by software into one broadcast .
[#wikinews 01:09] <Amgine> <nod>
[#wikinews 01:10] <jkbaumga> wikinews via podcast?
[#wikinews 01:10] <Xirzon> I'm logging off. talk to you later
[#wikinews 01:10] <Dan100> bye Elo
[#wikinews 01:10] <Dan100> no hold on, Erik
[#wikinews 01:10] <carlb> thanks for hosting Xirzon
[#wikinews 01:10] <Dan100> too many names!
[#wikinews 01:10] <Xirzon> you're welcome. thanks for coming
[#wikinews 01:10] Action: *carlb sorry I missed most of it
[#wikinews 01:10] <Amgine> g'nite Xirzon. And Thanks!
[#wikinews 01:10] <Xirzon> Dan100: ...
[#wikinews 01:11] <Amgine> The log is now available at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews_Chat/2005/02/05/log
[#wikinews 01:11] <Xirzon> thanks, amgine
[#wikinews 01:11] <Dan100> ta Amgine
[#wikinews 01:11] <Xirzon> I'll drop a note on foundation-l about it
[#wikinews 01:11] <Amgine> <nod>
[#wikinews 01:11] <carlb> Amgine: rather than trackback, I was thinking more along the lines of the xml-rpc api blog bit
[#wikinews 01:11] <carlb> found it here: http://www.xmlrpc.com/metaWeblogApi
[#wikinews 01:12] <Amgine> Let me start a notes page... I have a few too many windows open at the moment.
