WIKIMOVE/Podcast/Transcript Episode 16

Nikki: Welcome to episode 16 of WIKIMOVE and a happy new year from all of us. In this podcast, we discuss the future of the Wikimedia Movement. I'm Nikki Zeuner and with me is Eva Martin.

Eva: Hi everyone and happy new year from me as well. Nikki and I are part of Wikimedia Deutschland's Governance and Movement Relations team. And in this part, we try to imagine what the future of the Wikimedia movement could look like. Nikki, tell us about today's special episode.

Nikki: Yeah, so today we look back at 2023. It was a pretty tough year for many out there and yet the Wikimedia Movement plowed along, building the sum of all human knowledge. And there were gatherings and conversations about Movement Strategy and Governance. And some of these conversations happened in this podcast. So we will let these pass before your ears and give a bit of our take on what was mind-opening, significant, worth talking about. You'll get a little behind the scenes glimpse and hear more of our takes than usual. And then we will look into the future and emit some predictions over which we will hold ourselves accountable in late 2024, promise.

Eva: So in our work, we focus mostly on movement governance. But here on Wikimove, we did touch on many aspects of Movement strategy and we had very high diversity of speakers. So let's go through the eight episodes that were released this year. Nikki, you wanna start with our little look back? Tell us about the first episode of last year. This was our movement strategy Q&A.

From episode 8: So I see that knowledge is power and knowledge about Movement strategies is significant as helping us achieve the goals that we have set for ourselves by 2030. And I say this because once we are aware, once the newcomers also get to know about the movement strategy, you will see that it's going to reflect in our programs, it's going to reflect in our events, the tools that we're building in our community. And so we see that this is really a significant role that communities, organizers, user group, I feel like we need to consciously play and communicate this to their community members. And it's up to us to identify ways that we can socialize it in a way that appeals to our community. Like we're doing here, talking about Movement strategy on WIKIMOVE, which is an exciting opportunity to bring people along in this conversation.

Nikki: Oh yeah, Movement Strategy Q&A. So we did that because we wanna make sure to often go back to the basics of Movement strategy to assure that newcomers can participate and enrich the conversation about where Movement goes. So in this episode number eight, we invited a few Wikimedians from Africa. It was Sharon from Ghana, it was Likambo from South Sudan who actually was speaking to us from a refugee camp in Uganda. And then Ruby from Ghana to ask their questions, like, what is the strategy? Why is this important for my community? What can I do to participate? And I hope we did a decent job answering their questions. We did have a bunch of tech issues. So this pod is more of a Q&A than a conversation. But I do think we need to give a shout out to the African communities at this stage, or maybe Eva, you wanna do that?

Eva: Yeah, I often heard that Africa is the future of the Wikimedia movement. And this makes a lot of sense when you look at the world population, but also just like when you see the energy within the African communities. And they are amazing community members who are dedicated to the Wikimedia projects and who really want to share their knowledge with the world. And I think that in that context, our job is to make sure that our tools and infrastructures allow them to do so. And that's a big part of the Movement strategy really, because we know that historically, strategy conversations have been dominated by, well, by people like us, by people from the Western parts of the Movement. And it's time to rethink the way we talk about strategy to make sure that the voices at the table are the ones that actually need to be heard.

Nikki: That makes a lot of sense. And I also think it's not just talking about strategy, but also maybe rethink some of the ways. So it's not talking about strategy, but it's also strategy itself, thinking about the ways we might have to make our Movement more open and allow these folks to not just allow, allow sounds so colonial again, but embrace them and make sure they can also shape the Movement. And this is not just the Movement, but also the projects like Wikipedia and Wikidata. The next episode was sort of the opposite of that. It was nerd adjacent for sure. It was called Abstract Wikipedia.

From episode 9: With Abstract Wikipedia, we really hope to actually create article text that can be read to create at least simple articles, but create a common baseline of knowledge that's available in many more languages than it is today. So this is how, this is the one side of knowledge equity. The other side of knowledge equity, which we tend to sometimes forget, but which I think is even more important, is that we want to allow everyone to contribute to the sum of all knowledge.

Nikki: So there we went from super basic to high level technological. And in this episode, we talk with two legendary software developers, let me Denny Randevich and Randevichich, sorry, Denny, and Lydia Pinscher about the software products that are changing the way the Movement leverages data. And that's also part of moving towards the strategic direction and figuring out how to do knowledge equity and knowledge as a service. So Lydia gave us an update on what was happening with Wikidata and then Denny shared about a newer project, Abstract Wikipedia, which aims to let more people share more knowledge and more languages. Abstract Wikipedia allows people to create and maintain Wikipedia articles in a language independent way. So a particular language Wikipedia can then translate the article into its language. So it's all very mysterious. In the podcast we also touch on wiki functions and large language models and how it all relates. So I have to admit that I still don't fully understand abstract Wikipedia. So yeah, it would be actually cool to hear an update from Denny on how this is going these days. I do know that our people at Wikimedia Deutschland, Wikidata and Wikibase folks and elsewhere are working to make the OpenLink data tools more accessible and reusable for diversity of users across the world. So that they're working really hard and also aligning their strategy with Movement strategy.

Eva: I also found this conversation extremely interesting. I would not pretend that I understand more than you do, Nikki. But there is this one recording of a Wiki Functions demo that Denny made during Wikimedia last year. And might be interesting to watch for like those of you who would like to learn a bit more about the stages of the project and how you can actually contribute there on it. To me, what was fascinating during the conversation was to try and think beyond the encyclopedia. And we really try to explore how accessing free knowledge could look like in the future. That's an exercise that I found very interesting. Because people have been talking about chatGPT a lot this year and how it could impact the work of our communities. And to me, this episode really gave me some key to better understand what's at stake there.

Nikki: Yeah, true. Yeah, we did prod the chatGPT questions for sure.

Eva: Yeah. So very interesting. And maybe that's something we could talk a little bit about next year. Maybe there is going to be another episode about it.

Nikki: Okay. So then we went on to episode 10, governing Wikipedia.

From episode 10: Yeah, that's complicated because I fear that in 20 years, the rules have proved to be quite solid and effective. Thanks to these rules, this is why most of the world now believe in our, believe us to be a trustworthy source in a notion of fake news and old outdated news and all. So we build our quality thanks to these rules. So it's very difficult to move away from them and to abandon them because of this. So we need to find ways and maybe the ways will not come so much from us changing the rule but from us creating more opportunities to have access to these local sources.

Nikki: For me, that was one of the most eye-opening conversations, which is kind of a sad statement since I've been working for a movement organization for 10 years this year. But I started to really get a good insight into sort of our system of stewards and administrators. So we talked to two Wikipedia administrators about the challenges that our community governance system is facing. And unfortunately, what we learned wasn't all that uplifting because the functionaries on Wikipedia are too few. They are overwhelmed. There's no good way we have figured out how to grow new ones. And of course, their perspective was that of veteran admins, of people who have been around for a long time. We didn't say their names, Martin and Florence. Martin is active in the stewards user group and actually they just send out an email. So anybody who's interested in participating in the stewards elections should look out for that email on the L-list. Now they're really desperately trying to get more people. So we also touch on notability and some of the other rules in Wikipedia that make it challenging for newer people from marginalized communities to join. So we try to go a little bit that way, but I feel like also maybe we should have another episode this year on those topics from the perspective, more of emerging communities.

Eva: And that's actually something we said back then, we said that this topic should be discussed on WIKIMOVE with guests from more marginalized part of our Movement, because some people have been asking for change over the last decade. And they are quite frustrating that it's not happening or that it's not happening fast enough.

Nikki: Discussion is very interesting because in our conversations about Movement governance, not project governance, we always refer to community self-governance as this sort of sacred area of governance that will not be touched by any new structures like a global council. And I think that's also a good thing. We always say that the idea of subsidiary governance and self-management is well and alive in our Movement. When I talk to researchers looking into researching civil society communities and their democratic practices, Wikipedia is always perceived as this great model to be replicated, potentially saving democracy and civic engagement. So people look up to us because we have this culture of deliberating online and negotiating about articles and all this stuff. But after this conversation with those two, I am not so sure how sustainable this is and also how democratic is the system really? And to what extent does it surface marginalized voices and knowledge?

Eva: Though questions Nikki. But it just, this makes me think of something published by Mozilla recently. And they shared some reflections about the work they did this year. And they talked about what worked and what didn't work. And they say that being able to fail and learn as opposed to fail and quit is what makes them so strong. And I really liked that statement. And I think that it's the same for us too, or at least that's how I would like to be thinking of us. So. I think that this episode and our guest made it quite clear that it takes a lot to become an admin on Wikipedia. And these people are investing many hours of their life to contribute to our projects. And I even believe that the level of dedication shown by our volunteers is unmatched on any other digital platform. So that's huge. And maybe we could just try to collectively use this energy and this wisdom to become even better at what we do. And then maybe we can create a movement where everyone who shares our vision can actually join us.

Nikki: All right, you said it all. We can quit at this point. Yeah, that would be lovely. But we will get to our wishes and our predictions at the end, so. The next episode, we're plowing through these quite quickly actually, was episode 11, and we talked about decentralization and subsidiarity also, both of those things.

From episode 11: I would just add one thing, which is that I think centralization and decentralization is a spectrum. And so we can also find ways that are hybrid, where it doesn't have to be completely decentralized or completely centralized. There are usually ways to keep some of the functions centralized, but to keep the efficiency and the effectiveness, but also to have some part of it that is decentralized so that you have the local expertise and the people making decisions about the work that they're doing.

Nikki: And so that was another one of those episodes where we go back to the origins of movement strategy. And we shed light on some of those big concepts that are at the foundation of the strategy and to how Wikimedia projects are governed since the beginning in a decentralized and subsidiary way. We had Claudia and Guillaume there, and they explained where these concepts came from and why they're central to also the future governance model as outlined in the strategy. And then we explored with them what decentralization could mean in practice for different areas of different functions in the Movement. So they also had sort of a little bit of a back and forth then on the merits of certain functions like fundraising, software development and advocacy, currently being done centrally. Is that better or is it better if they're done by many networked actors across the Movement? Eva, what do you remember?

Eva: Yeah, I think they made a very good case for a rational approach to decentralizing power and responsibilities in the Movement. Because those are topics that have a high potential for tensions and have been causing frustration for years now. So I think that looking at them from a more factual perspective is what's needed to get the conversation going. And I think that the key point here, and that's clearly a task for us for the next years, is to identify what are those areas where it makes sense to have a centralized authority and what are the areas where we would just become so much more efficient if we were to share responsibilities among different entities. And I think that for us to be able to do it, we need to be able to look at the facts and the data and get away from the emotional narrative.

Nikki: Yeah. Those questions like how much power is the foundation willing to give away? We really need a pragmatic approach to this. And we also be good to have an approach sort of informed maybe by practices of other movements. But I keep saying that and people are like, “no, we're different.” I think. I think you're not. We're unique. Yeah, that's what they all say. I think in our Movement, we have enjoyed the centralized model for a long time in ways that have made things comfortable for many stakeholders, but that also have robbed us of the basic strengths that social movements need. So like social coherence, for example, the understanding that we're working towards a joint mission and to support each other in that, rather than expecting support from the big central mothership. So I think we've lost that a little bit because of the centralized model. In my view, empowered communities, like people and groups who make their own decisions funded by their own money in the context of their cultural and economic and political environment and who build the capacities that they need to do so, hat's what we need to be a Movement. And I'm also worried about our innovative capacity. Innovation lies within the people and groups of the Movement out there who do the work of creating open knowledge every day. Innovation typically has a hard time emerging from a large centralized bureaucracies. And innovation is a survival skill in this world.

Eva: I think that beyond the structural need for a system change, that our ability to strive as a decentralized movement relies on the people behind it. Which means that the people need to show up and to be willing to take responsibility. But for this to happen, we need to create a path for engagement and structures that allow these voices to be heard. So it's kind of twofold for me, at least in the way I perceive it.

Nikki: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, I'm going to add one more thing. As many of you know, our team has researched the major large organized international movements out there to get a better understanding of how they are governed and how they organize their fund distribution. And there is not one of them as centralized as ours. Centralized like in the sense of having one very large organization that takes on most of the functions. All the ones we looked at had international secretariats at a much smaller scale with fewer staff. And this includes the big ones that you all know about, Greenpeace, Amnesty International, and so forth. So they have smaller secretariats, fewer staff, costing less money. And yes, we have the big software development part that others may not have. But even if you take that out, the Wikimedia Foundation is still larger than any of these. So given the threat of decreasing income from online fundraising, which we keep hearing about, it may be time to look at a leaner, more distributed model maybe.

Eva: Let's move on. The episode afterwards was quite self-centered in a way because it was about Wikimedia Germany, Wikimedia Deutschland, and our role in the Movement. And in that episode, we, I mean, I'm saying we, but back then it was you and Nicole. So you interviewed the leading women of our organization and you got their take on Movement strategy. And why it's not really an option, but it's a must for our Movement to survive.

From episode 12: For me, it's also the people. It's the people coming together. And that can be offline, as Elise just described, and in person. But it's also online. It's this coming together and going through sometimes really difficult conversations, argumentations, finding solutions to non-trivial problems and be it only what should be written in a paragraph in an article, right? But this drive of doing this in order to make the knowledge of the world accessible to everyone and that energy that creates, that's what for me makes the Movement. And it's something I can see, again, in the communities, but it's also something I see and perceive for people in the office that work there or in partner organizations we work with. It's always this drive and this energy to do this together. That's actually what makes the Movement the Movement for me.

Nikki: I gotta say, these women make me proud to work for Wikimedia Deutschland. As an organization that has understood it's part of something larger, like the Movement. And that is also shout out to Nicole, thanks to her tireless work of saying that over and over since I've joined. And an organization that's leaning into that responsibility to make the larger Movement sustainable and viable and adaptive and all the things we need to survive and be relevant for the world. So I've just from a perspective of I've worked in the nonprofit sector for more than three decades now. And the organizations that are able to think system of organization that are able to prioritize mission over money and that turn privilege into responsibility are very few, whichever nonprofit field you're in. So shout out to our ladies at the top.

Eva: Yeah, I couldn't say it better, Nikki, really. And I really appreciate that Franziska and Alice clearly stated that Wikimedia Deutschland is a privileged organization and therefore we have a duty towards the rest of our Movement. You know? And I think that to have a real meaningful impact, we need to understand our mission within the context of the larger ecosystem of free knowledge. And this includes the Wikimedia Movement, the volunteers, the affiliates. And when I think of our vision 2030, I envision a Movement where there are many organizations that have similar resources as we do now, so that we can share responsibilities and all feel accountable for the global growth of the Movement.

Nikki: Yeah, I love that vision. It would be great not to always be the biggest one. Then we went to a completely different topic again. Episode 13 was overcoming the harassment and transgender gap. That was really my favorite episode of the year. From episode 13: Our safety is in great jeopardy right now. And this is obviously speaking outside of Wikipedia, but really on Wikipedia as well, if you think about mental health, our safety is impacted there as well. And one of the main reasons that I keep going is because when someone searches for something Google or another search engine, Wikipedia results are going to come up right at the top. And if the first result that someone sees is a vandalized page about a transgender person or topic, that's going to have a serious impact on the men. If that's a vulnerable trans person, you know, looking for information that could help them or looking up other transgender people about their lives and they see vandalism there or hate speech. going to have a terrible impact. So I keep going for that reason. I don't know if this answers your question directly, but that's what I try to emphasize is the critical, critical importance of Wikipedia, this all-volunteer project to the world at large, which I don't think that everyone appreciates nearly enough.

Nikki: Usually, you know, an hour feels like it's not enough to have a deep conversation. And this one, I thought, despite the time constraints, felt very deep to me, very detailed. It was such a view into the intricacies of what's going on with transgender and binary, non-binary people in the movement. But, you know, it feeling deep to me, it might also be a function of me being completely ignorant on that topic and feeling like I'm learning a lot in that conversation. How did you feel?

Eva: But, I mean, just reacting to what you said, that's also the purpose of WIKIMOVE, right? So, for me, it was a very special episode, because it was the first time that I was one of the hosts on WIKIMOVE.

Nikki: Oh, true. Yeah, I should have mentioned that.

Eva: And it's also, I mean, it's a topic I've been wanting to talk about for a very long time. And I would even say it might be the episode where we talked the least about Movement strategy and yet everything revolved around the core Movement strategy principles. Everything we talked about was just about equity, empowerment, security, safety. We talked about how to make Wikimedia a safer and more inclusive place. But I would say that I did not only learn about the work of our volunteers to bridge the transgender gap on Wikipedia. I mean, this was a big part of the conversation and this was great, but it was also kind of like an eye-opener on just the daily struggles of non-binary people in the world and also particularly how allyship could look like. So I'm very grateful to our guests for their openness and them just like talking to us about what they are experiencing. And definitely an episode I would recommend to anyone who is looking for one episode to start the year now.

Nikki: Yeah, yeah, those are just incredible people to talk to. So then we moved on to episode 14 and that was about affiliates, Wikimedia affiliates.

From episode 14: And I think that's something we really do need to think about going forward with the movement strategy that more and more if we're talking like about a global council about something that is representative of the movement, we need to start making much more true decisions and this cannot just simply be anyone who's moved by the spirit gets more representation. It's a very hard thing for us to do because we've never really had to make those very tough calls about more of this less of that prune this away, add more here. That's really never really been part of our dynamic. But I think it has to be part of the thinking going forward. If we want, you know, ensure equity and decision making, which is one of the Movements strategy recommendations.

Nikki: Ah, the affiliates. So in that conversation, we talked to Andrew and Elizabeth, and we dove into the mess that the so-called organic growth of the movement organizations have left us with today. So they provided pretty interesting perspectives. Andrew talks from a more historical perspective, from someone who's known and observed the Movement since its early stages. He even wrote a book about it in 2009, I think. And then Elizabeth, on the other hand, recently joined as the ED of Wikimedia Norway, but has lots of comparative experience from the nonprofit sector. So she came with that fresh view and she noticed, I remember, like she noticed immediately how unempowered and this is my words. I don't know. She said that, but how unempowered our affiliates seem to be compared to other networks she's been in, what stuck with you from that one?

Eva: Yeah. I think that's an episode I would recommend to anyone who is thinking about starting a user group or transitioning towards becoming a Chapter. Because I'm, and I've heard, I've heard that this was very dense and we did touch upon many topics. But I really liked that we tried to address the why we need affiliates. And we did this by, you know, thinking about what's the added value that they bring to the Movement. And we talked about the fact that there is a lack of a general affiliate strategy at the moment, and it has been the case for the past years. And how this created a situation where there isn't much clarity on the reasons why a group should organize themselves as an affiliate in the first place. And I would even say there, Niki, that I think we, and when I say we, I mean we as Wikimedia Summit organizers, we also have a responsibility in this because with the Summit and with other events, we have created a system where people would want to start a user group to get some of the benefits attached to it. So in that case, you know, to get like invited to the Wikimedia Summit, instead of thinking about what's the inherent motivation and added value and purpose and vision in creating such a group. So I think that now with all the conversations happening around the Charter, it is the right time and the right opportunity to just discuss new ways of organizing ourselves as affiliates in the Movement. And just thinking of a system that actually like has an inherent value to it.

Nikki: Yeah, and you know, writing that in the charter and subsequent policies. Yeah, I've only, it's weird. I've been working for an affiliate for 10 years and I've only recently started thinking more about sort of the bigger picture. And I think it's important that we have conversations about their future among affiliates at the Summit and also beyond that. I mean, there's so many questions we should discuss. Like, should they be called affiliates? What is their job? Do they represent communities? I mean, we've heard in some of our online sessions, they don't feel like they represent their communities and maybe they shouldn't, but that's a conversation to have. What is their responsibility for generating Movement income? What should be their role in growing the Movement? What should be the global affiliate strategy? How do we overcome this adversary relationship sometimes that we feel between organizations and communities or staff people and volunteers? That's sometimes just sort of not a great view of each other. So how do we overcome that in the Movement and what role can affiliates play in that? So there's, I think they have so much potential that is currently not, we don't tap into that.

Eva: We are getting to the final episode of last year, which was about the story behind recommendation for ensuring equity in decision-making.

From episode 15: So that our starting point was to begin to debate of the current assumptions and principles, which are consistent or in alignment with the Movement strategy or Movement vision, basically where we want to get to and which weren't. And then the other thing that came out during these interviews was kind of information and perspectives on who has authority over which kind of decisions currently. And we also got recommendations for how that needed to change in order to get to our goals. So the basis of the recommendation for ensuring equity and decision-making came out super early in this process. And it showed up as kind of a pattern of responses around calls for more self-determination and more autonomy in decision-making.

Eva: So many of the initiatives that we talk about in this part, such as the Movement charter or the hubs, are coming from the final text of this Movement strategy recommendation. And in that episode, we invited Nicole and Margeigh, who were very much involved in the strategy process and they walked us through it.

Nikki: Yeah, we made that episode in anticipation of the upcoming summit, the main topic of which is governance. And that's what recommendation four talks about. At the Summit, the MCDC or the Movement Charter Drafting Committee will present the latest version of the Movement Charter at the summit and it will be the last point in time if this charter heads for ratification where the affiliates are in a room together to shape some of the major issues. So global council, the role of affiliates, we talked about about just a minute ago, fundraising, all these things. So in this episode, we do a little tour of the Movement strategy journey and our guests tell the story of why the involved stakeholders arrived at Recommendation 4, which basically says, go and build equitable participatory and representative governance for this global movement. So this is a great episode for folks who are coming to the Summit but who haven't been much involved and who might ask, or who have forgotten. I hear there's some people also who forgot the why, because it's been a while. The why of why are we building governance. So here's the why, if you want to know. And we want to know what we're going to be talking about for three days in Berlin in April. Speaking of that, it looks like big decisions are up this year, Eva. So we're now going to start looking ahead a little bit. Do you have some predictions for 2024? For example, will we have a charter?

Eva: Let's start with an easy question. I mean, Niki, you know me, I'm an optimist. So of course, of course I have to say yes, we will have a Charter by the end of the year.

Nikki: You're like beyond help.

Eva: Okay, and I'm going to tell you, not only will we have a Charter, but we will already be on the path to implementing those new changes. Okay. You know, let's dream big. Maybe the first global council might meet already before the end of the year, and I can already picture a very cool and nice and exciting first general assembly of the Wikimedia Movement.

Nikki: Wow.

Eva: It's nice. It's a nice vision, right? Yeah, it's a nice vision. But, you know, I mean, this is something I really believe in. I'd like to see herbs take even more power and responsibility, I think, this year. And I think I can even predict that several new herbs are going to be created in 2024.

Nikki: So you're like privative backroom conversations about that.

Eva: I think I'm not taking too many risks by assuming this. But you know, I also, I would like to think that 2024 will be the year of innovation where maybe we discover the next big thing, maybe a new sister project or a radical way to innovate on Wikipedia. How does this sound? Okay, that sounds really good. Okay, now share your thoughts, Nikki.

Nikki: I'm going to be a downer after all this optimism. So I think the path to the Movement charter is still a very rocky one. And I think it often feels like we're putting the rocks there ourselves and then stumble over them. And there may be a few more detours. So I'm going to lean into it and say we're not going to have a charter at the end of the year. And then we'll see who was right. I'll buy you a beer if you were right. I'm super happy if you're right, of course. I mean, I wish, I really hope that we will have a charter. My other prediction is that I think our communities will continue to shrink in the global north and we will continue to grow in the global south. And then my third one is, I think that the Poli Crisis, that's like the big word, this these days of this world will not stop and the world will need our projects more than ever. So it's a good thing if we get our stuff together and embrace that growth in the global South and keep those folks on board. On a happy note, I also think hubs have a lot of potential and as we said, affiliates if empowered have lots of potential to do groundbreaking work in 2024. So let's also share our wishes for 2024. Eva, what are your wishes for the movement?

Eva: Okay, I mean, with the prediction I made, I have to talk about the Movement Charter again. So, I mean, definitely what I wish for is just like for the charter process to come to a happy end. And to me, this would mean a situation where people feel empowered and enthusiastic again about strategy because they actually see that, you know, their voice matters and that they can make a change and that we can do great things together. I'm not going to be talking about the content of the Charter or what its implementation could actually mean, but if we reach this situation where there is just a room filled with energy again, I think this would already be a success. On a more general note, I wish for more love in the movement. And this means us showing real solidarity, understanding our work within the broader context of the Movement. Like we are not just isolated individuals working on similar projects, but we are actually a Movement. This would be nice. And I think that I wish that people would show even more empathy and respect and good faith when we argue and when we discuss things together and particularly when we try and make decisions. Because I think there are many tough topics that have a high potential for tension. And I just wish for us that when we are having those conversations that we can actually just be reminded of the love and just like, argue in a respectful way, really. That makes sense. And let's maybe also quickly look beyond the Wikiverse. Like, let's look at the world out there. I would somehow hope that, you know, it stops spiraling into crisis, even though I've heard what you're saying. Like, I may not be so optimistic about it, but that's definitely a wish I have. And, and I hope that, you know, we can just do what we do best and collaborate together to try and make this world a better place, maybe. Yeah. Niki, tell me about your wishes.

Nikki: Well, yours are very nice. And I mean, essentially, you know, when we talk about what we wish for the Movement, it is always with the thought in mind, what we need to survive, we need to be there, we need to be the best we can to serve our purpose in this world, which is providing the sum of all human knowledge to everybody and making sure everybody can contribute to it. So, but that also means that we need to be healthy within, you can't be something to the world when you're not well. So I really wish that our Movement finds its Movement, it becomes more movementy. Maybe that's the same thing when you say love, I hope that it takes more on more characteristics of an actual Movement that finds itself in a way. So that includes like finding a way for accepting new people from all countries and cultures and backgrounds and embrace that they may interact and play and work together and edit and socialize differently than our first generation Wikimedians. And I hope that we can find a way to embrace the enthusiasm, for example, of African communities that we talked about and then figure out ways to not scare them away with our crusty rules and our harsh communication on the platforms and that we can also decolonize our funding and our partnering practices. So that's one part for the sort of the communities. For the affiliates, I wish that they can find their power and they can start raising funds and do things together and really drive growth and emerging communities. And together, among the affiliates, wish that we can continue to build the social infrastructure of the Movement like events, platforms, peer exchange, really distribute the action, power and the love, like you say. And I also wish that we can find our innovative and our adaptive capacities. Otherwise, this Movement will not survive for long in this world. And then finally, I wish for the Wikimedia Foundation, who does many, many great things for our Movement, that they are also successful in answering the question that is one of the three big questions, I think, or three areas that Marianna mentioned in her last letter. What are we? What is our role in all this emergence? And that they can maybe find the grace to let things go also and trust that other people might be able to take things on. I think it was Peter Senga who said, like, you know, in the Western world, so much of our identity comes from what we do and what we achieve and the skills we have, you know, and our successes and what we perform. And then combined with a very strong individualism. And sometimes we cling to these things so much, they make part of our identity and we wrap these things around us and like a coat. And then when you shed parts of that, it feels like a liberation. So I'm wishing a little bit of liberation, a little bit of ease and just letting go for Wikimedia Foundation. Because now we have so many people in our Movement from the global south and also from eastern cultures where that mentality isn't, the culture is different. The collective is more important, the community is valued over the individual. And so I'm hoping that this helps make us more of a Movement in the classic sense with a real feeling of joint purpose.

Eva: That's very nice and inspiring, Nikki. You also had very nice wishes. Um, yeah, I mean, so many nice wishes and predictions for the year to come. I already can't wait to be at the end of the year, looking back at it and analyzing what actually worked. Um, but okay, that's enough of us talking, Nikki. Now we want to know what you are thinking. You, the WIKIMOVE fans. Maybe this look back made you interested in listening to some of the pods you had missed, or maybe re-listening to some of the pods you've liked and you would like to listen to again. And we are getting closer to the Wikimedia Summit. So if you are attending, many of our guests will be there. So you can continue the conversation with them or with us.

Nikki: So that's a wrap of the 16th episode of Wikimove and the first episode of 2024. Thank you for listening, for indulging just hosts being here, no interesting guests, just us. Eva, read us out.

Eva: Yeah, WIKIMOVE is a production of Wikimedia Deutschland and its governance and movement relations team. And Wikimovie is available on podcast apps and YouTube. Our music was composed and produced by Rory Gregory and is available under CC by SA on Wikimedia Commons. And so are all of our episodes.

Nikki: You can visit our WIKIMOVE Meta page to listen to all the previous episodes we talked about today. And you can also suggest topics and guests for our next episode. You can even suggest yourself if you want to. You can also use our Meta page to react to podcasts, connect with other listeners and subscribe to always be notified of our new episode releases.

Eva: And if you want to reach out to us, you can do so via the WIKIMOVE Meta page or you can send us an email. All the relevant links are available on the show notes. Today, the links will probably just be the links to the previous episodes. And thank you, Nikki. It was very nice to have this little chat with you today. And I look forward to the year with you here on WIKIMOVE.

Eva: Thank you, Eva. I think that was a nice conversation and it felt almost Christmassy, even though Christmas is over already. Everybody have a happy new year. Be safe, edit lots of articles, come to the Summit if you can. And we look forward to talking and seeing you. Ciao everyone. Tschüssi, au revoir. Bye bye.