WIKIMOVE/Podcast/Transcript Episode 12

Nicole: Welcome to episode 12 of WIKIMOVE. In this podcast, we discuss the future of the Wikimedia movement. I am Nicole Ebber and with me is Nikki Zeuner.

Nikki: Hi everybody.

Nicole: We are part of Wikimedia Deutschland's Movement strategy and Global Relations team.

Nikki: This episode was recorded on 25th of May, 2023 at 15:00 Central European Standard Time. No, summertime actually. Things may have changed since we recorded this show, but what we still know..

Nicole:..is that by 2030, Wikimedia will become the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge and anyone who shares our vision will be able to join us.

Nikki: This podcast is also available on podcast apps and on YouTube. And if you want to reach out to us, you can do so via our Meta page or you can send us an email. All the relevant links are available in the show notes. And please do go on Meta and make suggestions for future topics and guests. So on this part, we have two distinguished ladies from our own shop, Wikimedia Germany, Wikimedia Deutschland. Alice and Franziska will share why they think Movement strategy is critical for the survival of Wikimedia and free knowledge. They will also talk about what WMDE, Wikimedia Deutschland, is doing to further the strategy and how the second largest Wikimedia organization plans to use, share, and maybe give up some of the historic privileges that we've gathered over the last decade or so. So, Nicole, you want to introduce our first guest?

Nicole: Yes, I'm happy to introduce Alice Wiegand. She has been a Wikipedia editor since 2004. She has been close to Wikimedia Deutschland since 2005 already, and then from 2012 to 2018 has been on the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees and has then also been the chair of Wikimedia Deutschland, Deutschlands Präsidium or Board, since last year. She was a member of the advocacy working group during phase two of Movement strategy development from 2018 to 2020. Alice, where are you actually calling in from? Because you're not in Berlin, right?

Alice: Indeed, I'm not in Berlin and I'm saying hey and hi from Düsseldorf in Germany.

Nikki: Cool. And then we also have with us Franziska Heine. She is the executive director, one of two, of Wikimedia Deutschland. And before she took on that role, she was leading the software development department of Wikimedia Deutschland since 2017. Before she joined us, she has been working in various product jobs for international companies like eBay, Nokia, Microsoft, and heretechnologies. You can actually look her up on the German Wikipedia. Franziska, you're calling from where?

Franziska: I'm actually in Berlin, south of Berlin. And yeah, I'm super excited to talk a bit

our role, Wikimedia Deutschland's role in the Movement strategy process, but also about my personal involvement and experiences over the last couple of years.

Nikki: Really looking forward to the conversation. Nicole has a little disclaimer to share.

Nicole: Yeah, I wanted to say something before we start because as you might now have noticed, Nikki and I, we are interviewing our lady bosses today. And until now, we have kind of avoided having too many voices from privileged organizations on the show including the one we work for ourselves. But we think today's conversation is very important and that's why we invited Franziska and Alice to this show and also the two have really been involved in the Movement and Movement strategy for a very long time and with a lot of passion.

Nicole: So now we'll actually start with our first question.

Nikki: Yeah, let's get into it. Alice, let's start with you. So what is your vision of the Movement in 2030 personally?

Alice: When I'm thinking about the Movement in 2030, I really think about something which is built on shared values and real heart blood and where these things define our relationships and create something that is just much more moments and chances for free knowledge than thinking in national borders or in geographical claims, but much more driven of what is really, really important for us. So the Movement in my inner picture, just overcomes these traditional thinking of, I care about things where I live, rather, I think we are going into a world where we do need to think what makes our lives better in general, what makes things better in general, regardless of who you are, where you are, and what infrastructure you can use. So therefore, for this really big picture, of course it's on a very abstract level, but this is where my motivation comes from, because I do think we need to just make this step further since there's no one else but us.

Nikki: Yeah, that's a great vision. Really thinking about us as a global Movement and not just an assembly of projects and chapters and affiliates. So there's a lot of different parts to Movement strategy. It talks about governance, it talks about technology, it talks about knowledge management, capacity building. What's some of the stuff that you're particularly passionate about or that you've also been involved with from the start?

Alice: I think that my passion is a bit on those things which makes the foundation for everything else, foundation for more, you know, more operative things. So I care a lot about advocacy, for example. I was a member of the advocacy group. On the first side, you may think that, okay, so, but this is even more abstract than thinking about free knowledge. But I do think talking about advocacy is also talking about enabling people and creating a world where they can act freely, freer than maybe today. And therefore, I do think that with everything we are doing for free knowledge. We are doing so much for political and social connectivity and building something which stays for a longer base, a longer timeframe. And then people can build up upon that with their concrete ideas. So this is also something which goes into the direction and now we are much closer to the Strategy 2030 when we talk about equity and decision-making, for example. So for me, you have a layer which is infrastructure and advocacy, and then you have something which is really about “Where's the power? Who makes which decisions for the Movement, in the Movement? What's the relationship between individuals and entities?” And even more, “how can we foster people to step up and take over tasks and things to do and responsibility? And feel accountable also for bringing these things together and bringing them further than they are now.” And for this, I do think we still have to think a lot about what decisions we are talking about, about what could be the right frame for those decisions to be made. And of course, If it is about decisions which are already made today, is it still the same decision maker? Or do we want to change things for the better of our shared idea? These are two things which are really driving me and which still keep me on this topping, looking what is happening there at this time, the drafting of the Movement charter, for example, which will definitely touch these things as well.

Nikki: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Maybe we'll have some time later to talk a little bit about that and governance and the changes. But over to you, Nicole, first.

Nicole: Yeah, I have a kind of a surprise here because I'm going to ask the same questions to Franziska now as well. So, Franziska, what is your vision of the movement in 2030?

Franziska: So I'm very much with what Alice said, right? So some, the Wikipedia, especially, right, our most known products, projects, they're language based. But the thing is, to get to my vision in 2030, which is one of really a thriving and vibrant Movement, it means looking at the Movement and at the people all over the world. It's not just in certain language projects. It's like everywhere. And we all have to do this together. And I think in this positive outlook and vision, I believe we actually, our Movement can in a way become an example for how to tackle challenging problems collectively. Because that's what we're what we're trying, trying to do all the time. And I believe we will be successful with that and we will create a world in which creating and sharing knowledge is something that really everyone can do and that serves in turn everyone. And that means we will have to go through all these processes of finding well-working solutions and processes to make decisions. And if we do this well, I really believe we can inspire not just ourselves, but also the wider ecosystem, right? Because it's even beyond our Movement, there are other systems that are connected to us. And I believe we can really create sparks all over the place and the world that inspire others too, based on the work we do and based on the experiences we make in the Movement.

Nicole: What parts of Movement strategy are particularly important to you? And I know you've also been involved in it from early on. What are your favorite parts or the parts that you think most and care most about?

Franziska: Yeah, as Nikki mentioned in the very beginning, right, I'm having a background in product and tech. And I came to this movement as someone working particularly on these technology questions. I was part of the product and technology working group during the earlier phase of the Movement strategy process. And yeah, the technical development of our products and technical innovation in general is incredibly important to me. And what's really special about the work we do in the Movement is the deep interconnectedness of people and technology. We never look at one of these things in isolation. It's always together. That includes the volunteers writing the content of the projects, which we try to support with tools and software, but that also includes people looking for information in Wikidata, in Commons. The technology that powers our projects, in a way, is the very foundation on which we exist, on which these projects exist. And these products or better the architecture of these products, right? MediaWiki, Wikibase, that architecture is shaped by the system in which we think and by how we perceive the world. And in turn, then, it shapes the way we talk about the world, how we transmit what we know in the Wikipedia articles. That is shaped by the technology, right? And again, the technology is shaped by how we think and what we see. And to really answer the question, in terms of recommendations, particularly important for me with this in mind, is the second recommendation, improve user experience, and the ninth, innovate and free knowledge. There are elements of technological questions in others too, but these are the two that are really sticking out for me.

Nikki: This reminds me a bit of the discussion also around artificial intelligence right now and the technology we create perpetuates or even amplifies the biases that people bring to it and that we need to be always super aware. And I think the strategic direction sort of points in that direction as well, saying that we need to remove the technical barriers for people. All the discussion around notability criteria right now. I mean, those are our IP blocks. Those are all the discussions that are following out of that. So I agree it's super important. So we're always talking about Movement. Movement we call this assembly of people, organizations, and projects and Movement. And some people question that term even. If you look at the Charter drafting language right now, there's a discussion on the discussion page about are we even a Movement, we're not a Movement. In your view, what makes our Movement a Movement and maybe what are some parts we're missing and that we need to build still to be truly that global Movement that at least that you envisioned in the beginning.

Alice: I think that this, our Movement, is really something, you know, I'm looking at it really feeling proud about it because, you know, it's been created with an intention but without the idea of let's make a Movement. So I do think it's a place where people, infrastructure values, this heart blood, I already talked about that and how important I think it is, where all these things already come together. I think that the Moment when you really realize this is a Movement, is when you see what happens when these people who are working on same ideas and projects come together and meet in person in real. I do think that looking at their faces really explains everything. There's so much happiness and so much relief and so much, it's just good to be together and create something in a joint idea as something which makes me speechless each time and I'm seeing this for a lot of years. And it's something very special, special moment each and every time there's a new meeting of people. When you see when people first come to those meetings, it could be local meetings as well, just a handful of people coming together and talking about their work on Wikipedia articles, still there you see how much it gives back to this individual that there are people with the same interest, maybe with some more experience, so that they can just exchange and learn from each other and make their little part of this huge idea even bigger or better or more efficient or just feeling like, okay, it's not me, only.

Nicole: Franziska, do you also have something you would like to respond to that question?

Franziska: Absolutely, yeah. For me, it's also the people. It's the people coming together. And that can be offline, as Alice just described, in person, but it's also online. It's this coming together and going through sometimes really difficult conversations, argumentations, like finding solutions to non-trivial problems and be it only what should be written in a paragraph in an article, right? But this drive of doing this in order to make the knowledge of the world accessible to everyone and that energy that creates, that's what for me makes the Movement. And it's something I can see, again, in the communities, but it's also something I see and perceive for the people in the office that work there, or in partner organizations we work with. It's always this, yeah, this drive and this energy to do this together. That's actually what makes the Movement the Movement for me.

Nikki: I think it's absolutely lovely how you described that enthusiasm and that vision and the people. I've seen it also at Wikimania. That's just sort of the magic that's there. But I'm just wondering, so what can we do to feed that more, right? Because there's still lots of parts of the Movement out there who sort of operate in isolation, who think they're alone.

Alice: What I think that this little thing which is maybe still missing is the capability, the competence, the knowledge, the experience to just make the best out of this, the best out of this, you know, powerful thing. I still think we're just not, we're just not reaching out far enough. We are just not just really thinking out of the box and trying to rethink our experiences in a very new vision. I do think that we still miss just the fact of working together and finding new role models of sharing the work which is to be done also and make best out of that. But I don't think that it is undoable. I do think that A, we still have to think about that not everyone is able or willing to do everything. So we need to think about roles and functions and all of that. But at the same time, maybe we just don't have the right tools yet. So I would like to think about how to foster efficiency, our relationship, working, how to bring people into a situation where they think they can be, then their impact is greater tomorrow than today. That's something where I think we may invest some thoughts, money, whatever we need.

Nikki: So speaking of impact, I think maybe it's time to talk a little bit about Wikimedia Germany. You want to take that over, Nicole?

Nicole: Yes, I would like to take that over. So the Wikimedia Foundation, they just published their annual plan draft and they describe what they would like to support and also what they do in regard to supporting Movement strategy. And what we would like to talk with you about a little bit is of course, what is Wikimedia Deutschland doing to support the advancement of the Movement towards the strategic direction, towards 2030? I mean, you're right, the Wikimedia Foundation, they just did this very, very nicely and eloquently. Wikimedia Deutschland is, I would say, doing quite a lot of things on many levels. I mean, you too are an awesome example, right, Nicole and Nikki. You personally support the whole Movement strategy process for many years already. And we actually do this in different ways, right? Like, we've been given input and facilitation and support during the last years. I would say also things like hosting the Summit contribute to that because the Movement strategy process often played a role there. And in the phase we're currently in, we have this great group of people called the Movement Charter Drafting Committee. And we at Wikimedia Deutschland try to work with them, try to support them by providing input, for example, with papers like last year around topics, topics governance or the topic of money. And I know that there will follow another one this year. And also we started to develop our own positions. Aside from supporting what's going on, we also started to ask ourselves, how do we look at certain things? What is our position, for example, around structures that should govern our future Movement or how money should be distributed, to name a few. So that's an ongoing yet evolving process, right? Our role there evolves. And then there is a second level, which is a bit similar to what the foundation did with the annual plan, because we just created a strategic direction, which should govern our own decision making over the next five to seven years really strong references to the Movement strategy. It still needs to be ratified by the members assembly in June, though, but yeah, we're basically at the end of creating this. And the third level is what I would call that doing, yeah, doing on a project level, because we are actively implementing recommendation one, all the things that are around increasing the sustainability of our Movement. We do this by shifting, shifting capabilities, shifting responsibilities, but also resources and skills to partners in the Movement. So we help to create a new software team at Wikimedia Indonesia, for example, with the idea that they can build the tools they need to support their communities. Things like creating tools to help save their endangered languages. Because in Indonesia, there are many different languages, and some of them really have a hard time and while doing that at the same time to provide a service back to the Movement. And in case of this collaboration with Indonesia, the idea is that they will be building and maintaining the Lexin functionality for our LinkedOpenData ecosystem. Or as another example, the igbo user group in Nigeria, we help them to create a program for volunteers who are interested in developing their technical skills. So they can grow the number of people who will be able to build tools that serve their needs. Because they know this so much. We wouldn't be able to do this from Berlin. Or we just launched our new program, Re:shape, that aims to bring more content and perspectives of marginalized communities into the German-speaking projects. And last but not least, a huge thing, actually, Wikimedia Europe, we helped to create this hub over the last couple of years in order to have a strong voice when it comes to influencing decision making on it.

Alice: And it still should grow. So I do think there are a lot of ideas still in the line we were not able to talk about, but it's one of our deepest intentions to really move on in this way, to give support and help others to help to make their things.

Nikki: Yeah. So, Alice, can you talk about how does Wikimedia Germany, as a non-profit organization based in Germany, originally founded to serve the German speaking Wikipedia communities, support them? How do we benefit from all this international work and global work and building the movement? What are the benefits to us? As the chair of the board, you have to have that accountability, I guess, to our members.

Alice: Looking back into our own history, you can see that Wikimedia Deutsche, and from its beginning on, had a strong strive to open on an international base and open up our task box also to see what is around us. And it's not only the relationship to the Wikimedia Foundation, which is of course very important, but it is also to see what organizations are being around us. What is the context we are living in? So we already talked about Wikimedia Europe, and I do think it makes a lot to us as organizations that we are in the European Union, organizations in other parts of this world have their own legal and financial regulations. So, sometimes it is still that which is connecting us to other organizations having the same problems like there's a jurisdiction. We have to see how our thinking can fit into that and how we can impact regulation making on this level, for example. But I still think that for us as a German chapter, it is not only helpful, but really, really crucial to just see how does the world look like when you take on other classes. Changing perspectives is really, really helpful. We are not there to circle around our own. We are there and we are powerful and we are willing to do things because there's so much to do. And we need these new perspectives to just figure out where opportunities, where places where our support really can make a change. And I do think that when we look at the world today, we see we don't know if the world tomorrow is still the same as it is today. You know, we're struggling with war, we are struggling with climate, we're struggling with rich and powerful people taking over everything and closing up information and all things of basic infrastructure to other people. And in this landscape of insecurity, I do think we need to close up together to create some single spaces where it is okay to be and where it makes a change if you are there or not. And therefore, it just can't be just our own view. We need those other perspectives to make this picture a little bit more, a little bit more concrete, a little bit more complete, and a little bit more helpful for others to join us to do the same thing together with us.

Nikki: So I know, Franziska, you're also very passionate about why it's important for Wikimedia Germany to be globally involved. You want to add on to it, at least?

Franziska: Yeah, I am indeed. Because if we want it or not, we live in this time that's stricken by multiple crises. It's not just one. There's one after the other, they're simultaneously happening. And to be honest, I believe the only way for us to get out of this, to find solutions and answers to the problems we're faced with, the only way is to do this together. We will not be able, not a single nation or language group will be able to handle this. They are global problems and they need to be solved on a global scale and level. I mean, we are very unique, right? Our Movement is very unique and that it has this chance of creating possibilities to do so. But that means we need to connect the world. We need to connect the different knowledge that exists out there to find the answers. And that's why it's so important to really live up to that vision, to create and gather the knowledge of the world, not just the western world, not just the European world - the world as it is, at its maximum perimeter, so to speak. And yeah, I mean, that is something that's also important for us as a German Chapter, because again, with all the power we have, with all the privilege we have, we will not be able to do this alone. We need everyone, as many as possible. And that's the reason why we should contribute to this strong Movement anyway we can, basically, because it's also for our own survival in the end.

Nikki: Thanks. Yeah, I've used the word survival also in doing the Movement strategy process. And sometimes that urgency, that immediacy is lost a little bit on Wikimedians. You know, they're just, yeah, let's improve the way we're doing things. And when you talk about relevance and survival and the crucial role we could play as a Movement. Yeah, I would wager that not everyone in the Movement feels that same level of urgency. But I think definitely those who are involved in Movement strategy do. So you spoke of privilege just a little bit, Franziska, just now. And I think we should, I mean, one of the ways to start working with privilege is naming it. And we're all working for the second largest Wikimedia. organization, you know, we've been around for a long time, we do our own banner fundraising, have done so for, for more than 10 years, and have grown, consequently to be a very big player in this Movement. So looking at how Movement strategy might change the way power and privilege and particularly money is distributed in the Movement. Can you talk a little bit about what are some of the privileges maybe that Wikimedia Germany is ready to share, expand, give up maybe? We'll leave it up to you. Just talk about how is our privilege changing if Movement strategy gets implemented to its fullest?

Alice: At this moment, we really have this great opportunity to think about where our tasks and resources best located to do the things they should do. So even during our reflection on our strategical thinking, which we have now closed up with our own new strategical direction, we were thinking about what should be with us as a Chapter as Wikimedia Deutschland and what are things which may be better located elsewhere. I think Wikimedia Europe is a good example for things where it is quite simple to realize that if you are doing or wanting to do advocacy on a multinational level that you need a multinational organization to do that. But thinking this through makes you think also about other ideas of just looking at what is it, concretely what we are doing right now, and are we the best organization to do that right now? I don't think that we are just starting to think about this is the moment where we really do that. And I do think sometimes it's so easy where we made quite good experiences with just letting others host our organization. So staff from other Chapters, for example, come to Germany, to Berlin, into the office and see how does this work? So what is it to work at this place? And not only see a great location and a wonderful office, but also see how are the structures, what are the processes, and in exchange, even learn from each other. Again, this is key for all of us. It's not that we have the gold key for everything which needs to be fixed it is sometimes that we see, okay, hmm, there's something which could be done better, let's see how others are facing the same challenges. And this, you know, this staff experiences with just letting someone be there for some weeks is, I think, a great example to do that. And it's much, deeper learning than just throwing money somewhere. Still sometimes you just need to throw money to some places to let things there happen as well. But this is just an example where I do think these are great initiatives and I hope that we can create even more on that.

Nikki: Sounds great. Franziska, what do you want to add about sharing or giving up privilege?

Franziska: Yeah. Um, I mean, it's really about whatever you do. Or you think of doing immediate you also asking the question, do we have to do this? Or can someone else do this? And how can we help someone else do it? I spoke earlier about some of the projects where we actively try to do this, also to gain experience, right? Because what you just said is true, right? Sometimes it's not helpful to just throw money at a place, but unique to create the capacity in other places to be able to do something with that money. And that's also a responsibility. I think we have to create that capacity and then give the money away. Or things, for example, what we kept doing over the last years with the WikidataCon. I mean, WikidataCon is the big event for the Wikidata community. And a couple of years ago we've started to do this together with other chapters or groups of people who are interested in hosting this. And we just supported it in the sense that we gave the budget, we would usually use ourselves, we gave the budget away. And it's amazing what happens. It's not just to pat ourselves on the back and say, oh, well, we were so great, we give the money away and let other people do this, is what they create is so much better and so different from what we would have done. It's amazing if I think about what WikiMovimento Brasil, for example, did with WikidataCon, creating a pre-conference, giving it a totally different perspective that would have been impossible for us and it was amazing. It was amazing. It shaped so many things afterwards and I'm super curious to see what happens this year with the WikiDataCon in Taiwan. And I think that is the things, that's the first steps we take in trying to get used to and better at giving away things and learning what works well, what maybe needs some improvements. And then really doubling down on that. I think that is what's there in the future for us. And again, every time we think about doing something, immediately also think about, is it us or can someone else do this a lot better than me?

Nikki: So this points a little bit to our last show where we talked about decentralization and subsidiarity. I don't know if you had a chance to listen to it, but there's also the discussion about what we call functions and sort of what areas can we decentralize not just to decentralize them, but to make the outcome better and the product better and the work better.

Nicole: There was also time for a self-plug for Franziska and Alice because Wikimedia Deutschland has developed this strategic direction. You've talked about it earlier. It is developed to guide the chapter towards 2030. The board has already approved it. Next month it goes to the General Assembly and it will be asked to actually ratify it. Alice, would you want to talk a little bit about Wikimedia Deutschland's role and responsibility in the movement? Like, how is that reflected in the strategic direction?

Alice: One of the drivers of thinking about a new strategic direction was definitely that we already did things where we can't find, you know, the right anchor to really put it on without our strategic framework we already had. So I do think that there is so much, you know, it's not only the driver, it leads us to that. And I do think that it will emphasize our responsibility and our capability to really think movement-wide while still being a chapter in Germany and still thinking as, you know, being an organization with the General Assembly, which has their role and is so important for us, but make this thinking step to be, to include the movement in everything we are doing and proposing.

Nicole: Franziska, would you like to add to this?

Franziska: Now, I think it's on many levels, on one hand, side very specific about our own role, what we do, and also how we see ourselves in connection to the communities. Because they are super important. They are super important. We're here to support them, right? And also our role towards other Movement actors and partners. And yeah, I think it really creates specificity on one hand side, but also opens up spaces, which, yeah, super important for strategic direction.

Nikki: Cool. So that can probably be read on Wikimedia Germany's meta page once our general assembly goes ahead and ratifies that thing. So we're kind of at the end of the conversation. Anything, Franziska, you would like to add at the end? Anything we haven't talked about that you would share with us to wrap this up?

Franziska: I think I would just like to emphasize that I really believe that this is such a good idea great thing to endeavor and to do. And that I'm really looking forward what the outcome will be in 2030. I'm very optimistic person. So I see a great future. I also know it still is a long way to get there. But it's exciting. It's really a great job to have and a great work to do, even though it's sometimes is also hard work.

Nikki: Thanks. So that is a wrap of the 12th episode of Wikimove. Thank you for listening. Thanks, Franziska. Thank you, Alice, for these great insights in the thinking of Wikimedia Germany. This is the last episode before our summer break, which we will have until September. And then we'll come back for a second season of Wikimove with new guests and exciting topics to discuss.

Nicole: Yeah, and for me it has been a real pleasure to host this first season of Wikimove and interview our wonderful guests from our movement. But now it is time for me to hand over the mic to our colleague Eva Martin, because she will be co-hosting Wikimove Season 2 together with Nikki from September onwards.

Nikki: Nooo, it sounds sad that you might be not as involved. Eva, however, she has been pulling all the strings in the background since episode one, so she's not new to this. She contributed incredibly to the content here and to preparation and to talking to hosts and to guests. And she's also hasn't been at Wikimedia Germany that long. She's been with us since 2021, and it seems like she's already a movement veteran. She knows everybody, everybody knows her. She's, well, she's getting, she's getting embarrassed that you all can't see that, but she's a great asset. She's now a program coordinator for movement strategy and global relations. And so those of you who don't know her already will get to know her and on this pod and on other venues across the Wikiverse as well. So we look really forward to her lending her voice directly from September on. And Nicole, I know you will stay involved in the background of the next season, and of course, in also Wikimedia Deutschland's movement strategy work. However, you are taking on some additional responsibilities. Do you want to just give that away just a little bit?

Nicole: Yes, of course. I'm very excited to actually expand my responsibilities at Wikimedia Deutschland to Wikimedia Deutschland's own governance work. So that means I'll be working more closely, even more closely with our trustees, with our membership and our executive co-directors.

Nikki: All right. Well, I look forward to that being also closely connected to the movement strategy work. Of course, yes. Okay, then I guess you're gonna have to read us out one last time. Go ahead.

Nicole: Okay, okay. So, Wikimove is a production of Wikimedia Deutschland and its movement strategy and global relations team. Our music was composed and produced by Rory Gregory and it is available under a Creative Commons CC BY-SA 4.0 on Wikimedia Commons. And thank you to our wonderful guests Franziska and Alice. And of course, all the other guests who are part of the first season. It's really been quite a ride and a great pleasure to be, to host, co-host this show.

Nikki: During our summer break, you can visit our WIKIMOVE Meta page to listen to all those wonderful previous episodes and catch up on what the important people in the movement have to say about movement strategy. And then you can also suggest topics and guests for our next season, or even self-nominate if you want to come on the show and talk about stuff. You can use the Meta Page also to react to the podcast and to connect with other listeners and subscribe. So you can always be notified when there's a new episode. You can contact us also at wikimove@wikimedia.de via email and share your thoughts and suggestions. So have a great summer, everyone. And keep working on that Movement charter, Movement charter.

Nicole: See some of you at Wikimania actually.

Nikki: Yeah, some of you at Wikimania. And I was just gonna say Movement charter committee. Keep working, right? That's better. And people help them and support them. They're trying to get this done. It's important. Anyway, goodbye. Ciao for now. Tschüssi.