Talk:Wikimedia CEE Spring 2021/Structure/Croatia

Croatian list representation is problematic

It seems to me that Croatian list is super biased to traditionalism, football and over-representation of catholicism and men. It is a pity that even articles from last year that recived no or very few new translations stay on the list for 2021, sometimes even without being good articles. I tried to add more women and remove some of the obviously missfiting articles. Please join into this effort. --Zblace (talk) 12:18, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

@Croxyz: Just as a reminder that the list can be longer than a 100 articles. I would also urge to show all aspects of Croatian society and try to achieve an equal number of articles of persons of both genders. Especially in sports it is hard to believe that you can't select 5 women and 5 men ;-) Braveheart (talk) 13:25, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Zblace, Braveheart, first I shorted last year's list to it including only articles which are present on 8 or less wikis as the goal of this and last year's CEE list for Croatia was to promote internationally unknown significant topics regarding Croatia. Articles about women gained a lot of translations during last year's edition (they currently have articles on 8 or more wikis) and as a result of this a lot of women have been removed from this year's list. We (the Croatia list authors) haven't really properly organised yet due to a lack of free time (we'll try to organise during the weekend). We have only added some miscellaneous articles and some known authors who lived from the Renaissance to the early 20th century, as we want to cover all major literary periods. We plan on expanding the list in order for it to include more recent authors and female authors. A problem we're facing is the lack of female authors from the already covered periods, that is, they are not well known. Croxyz (talk) 23:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

I'd also like to add that the list includes some topics which are present on hr.wiki and not on en.wiki or vice-versa. This was made in order to encourage Croatian speaking users to translate these topics into English from Croatian/Croatian from English. Another intention was to get Bosnian, Serbian and Serbo-Croatian wiki users to translate these articles into their own languages. The criteria used for these articles which were present on hr.wiki but not on en.wiki was that they had to be featured, that is, they must be of good quality. If I remember correctly, this happened with several topics, for example someone translated an article abut Baroque castles in Slavonia into Slovenian. Croxyz (talk) 23:07, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Goals of CEE Spring are not translation in between neighbouring countries (in the same policentric language spectrum even!), or get pages translated into English but CEE languages. Braveheart I see this as a need for elaboration and clarification that needs to be made more explicitly if it is not obvious to experienced contributor like talk. -- Zblace (talk) 06:56, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Hm, I get the idea behind translating in neighbouring countries, but if you check the participants lists and the number of articles translated last year, the number of articles translated into Bosnian and Serbo-Croatian is very low, compared to high numbers in Ukrainian, Polish and Russian for example. In that sense it would make more sense to look into articles that do not have translations in the bigger languages of the region. I'm sure there is a way to fit both approaches into there, but then you'd also need the neighbouring countries aware of this too :-) Braveheart (talk) 15:37, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Lists (not) open for editing?

Croxyz I see content on Wikimedia projects as licenced under free and open terms + participation is encouraged unless they are archived documentation of processes or part of other procedural-technical exceptions.

Croatian list explicitly stated at the top 'This page is under construction. Please help review and edit this page.' at the moment when I started reviewing and editing, but also now. Yet to my last edit I got anothermanual revert with note: 'do not edit pages under construction (see template on the top of the page)'...this is both against regulations and good practices. If you feel you 'own' the list and are the only one that can populate it, maybe there is misunderstanding of WM CEE Spring.

Further more Tasks for local organizers state: 'Define a list of around 100 articles about your country, region or language, in ten of the following categories as considered meaningful with help from your own community.'... To say we will do it 'on a weekend' sounds like privatization of process away from existing community project of HR Wikipedia. I am announcing issues there. -- Zblace (talk) 06:41, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Please try and find consensus on this - if this is not possible, I'm sure we can work something out. BR, Braveheart (talk)

Zblace, I didn't realise that the Meta template was different from hr.wikis. I meant to use the hr.wiki counterpart which states: A user is currently working on this page! Other users are asked not to edit this page while this notice is present. Use this page's Talk page in case you have comments & questions regarding this page. Croxyz (talk) 15:55, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Croxyz The English template you used kinda has the opposite message: "Please help review and edit this page." Sorry if I edited during yours, hopefully you didn't lose any work cause of it. I do think some of the additions I made should be translated more, even those with above 8 existing translations (since I saw you mentioned that number in a previous edit), especially if among those 8 are bs, sh, sr, since those are hardly translations. Ionic22 (talk) 16:18, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Ionic22, Luckily I was not editing during that time. Among your additions were some really good ones, for example Lokvarsko jezero. The idea of the project is to shed light on lesser known topics, while some like Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić and Marija Jurić Zagorka are pretty known. This can also be seen due to the fact that they have articles on more than a half of the wikis participating, with the rest mostly being really small wikis. Croxyz (talk) 16:25, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Croxyz I agree with the two authors being well represented. Actually I was thinking about Snjezana Pejcic (8 edits, once you ignore sr. and sh., so within the benchmark you put up), Milka Babovic and Risnjak (11 edits both, without the local pluricentric translations, too much by that number you mentioned, although 10 is less than a third of the available wikis, so even up to 13 or 14 wouldn't be a bad number to take as a benchmark imo). All three of those are known, but not very well known, and Risnjak in particular is nice as a general "we have mountains too" statement, since we're way too known on the sea part, as a country. Of course, if another mountain or continental national park is in a worse translation spot than Risnjak that would also be a good addition. That's one of the reasons why I mentioned Lokvarsko lake as well, to give continental geography in Croatia some love. Ionic22 (talk) 16:44, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Economics

Can we cut down on the list of companies? For one, economy in general is in a crappy situation in Croatia, overrepresenting the category won't help that, and another, more important, point - it looks like advertising. There's plenty of other topics more important than that category as a whole, imo. Ionic22 (talk) 18:43, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

I fully agree. The list is looong and only companies (except for the first item being a historic manuscript). Last year there was also an article on tiny publisher Meridijani (?history books!) that should not have existed as Wikipedia page even in Croatian as it is only self-referencing. Zblace (talk) 06:12, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Architecture

no architecture

Jaruga_Hydroelectric_Power_Plant

This is nice historic information, relevant for Technology (AC power application) or Society (for the development of Šibenik and Dalmatia region), but it has ZERO statements in the article relating to architecture. -- Zblace (talk) 10:07, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Glagolitic Alley

This is a good art project on haritage of language/literature in sculpture, but again no architecture. Zblace (talk) 10:17, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

no EN/DE/RU translations

• Church of St. Stephen on the Island
• Baroque castles in Slavonia
• Church of Our Lady of Trsat

Zblace (talk) 10:17, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

El Shatt entry removal

@Croxyz, do you mind explaining why the WWII Dalmatian ***exile*** to en:El Shatt/Egypt article was removed from the list, whereas en:The Bowman and The Spearman/USA are still there? Both articles are popular on en.wiki and hr.wiki, and I've worked on both. I'm trying to understand why you picked one and not the other, when neither one of them is in Croatia (who ever said they should be?). I encourage you to read about en:El Shatt; fact is, for those 2 years, a little motherland was built in the Egyptian sand. That's very much Croatia to me! Ponor (talk) 03:28, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Ponor It is not about specific arguments he makes (when he does), but rather CROXYZ making decisions. Check above! He ignored his mistakes, deleted input of others and made few really bad choices. -- Zblace (talk) 10:51, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Ponor, to be honest, I am not really sure why I removed it. I may have assumed that it's one of those infamous WW2 articles which are present in the media every so often. Croxyz (talk) 21:49, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

That is a fake argument as you explicitly stated that it is in Africa. It is also something that you should not be doing as the list for Croatia is still missing diversity of articles and still hugely biased to catholic heritage and conservative nationalist values. This is only anti-fascist article, while WW2 Bombing of Zadar is interesting it sure directs to relativism in WW2. Also as @Braveheart: stated above - more can be added and should be discussed, not just removed or claim rights to be the editor! You ignored all the feedback given here to your inputs and you made statements on Discord that go explicitly against UCoC. I am to edit in all the female proposals I had and will keep adding new. You are welcome to challange them on this talk page User:Croxyz! --Zblace (talk) 07:20, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

I would just like to appeal to everyone to keep calm when discussing this, even if it can be an emotional topic. Any topic relating to Croatia should be relevant, because this is the only link to CEE. For example, the Austrian article list has/had quite a few articles on people who migrated to the UK or the US in the 1930s, even if they then stayed there (like en:Hedy Lamarr). Best, Braveheart (talk) 11:16, 25 March 2021 (UTC)