Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Porjidlo
Porjidlo Wikipedia
[edit]| submitted | verification | final decision |
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This proposal has been closed as part of a reform of the request process. This request has not necessarily been rejected, and new requests are welcome. This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy. The closing committee member provided the following comment: This discussion was created before the implementation of the Language proposal policy, and it is incompatible with the policy. Please open a new proposal in the format this page has been converted to (see the instructions). Do not copy discussion wholesale, although you are free to link to it or summarise it (feel free to copy your own comments over). —{admin} Pathoschild 05:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC) |
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- Number of speakers: approximately 7-12 thousand
- Locations spoken: Cambodia, India, Japan (emigration)
- Comments
- I think he may be referring to the Pear language. One of its alternate names is "por". For more clarification, perhaps Porjidlo can take a look at this page and give us the Ethnologue name for the language? --Node ue 05:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- Well, Node ue, I suppose it is very likely, that the information given is really connected with Porjidlo language. But as for me, I shoud tell, that in my opinion the number of speakers in Cambodia could be more than 1200, but they live more compactly. As far as I understand either it is different forms(/dialects) of one language or closely relative (but different) languages or may be just one language - unfortunately I can't say exactly, because I'm not a professional philologist (linguist). But it is likely to be truth. --Porjidlo 17:54, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
- It might be the same language, but we do still need more information. (The name "Por" might also be related to "Pear", which is a Khmer name for the language that Node is talking about.) Can you tell us what part of Cambodia Porjidlo is spoken in? Do you know the name for Porjidlo in the Khmer language? Can you find it here? Any information you can give us might be useful - even some vocabulary or a few sentences may help. --Chamdarae 20:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
- I think he may be referring to the Pear language. One of its alternate names is "por". For more clarification, perhaps Porjidlo can take a look at this page and give us the Ethnologue name for the language? --Node ue 05:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- I'm able to create 30-35 articles at the moment. I think it's enough to begin. --Porjidlo
- Hi, Porjidlo. Could you tell us more about this language? Does it have another name? Is it closely related to another language? (I removed the incorrect code that was in the template.) --Chamdarae 01:31, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, more information is really needed here. Especially when requesting wikis for little-known languages, it is up the proposer to provide sufficient information about the language to the community or their requests can't be processed. Arbeo 10:20, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose - Belgian man 12:30, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
- I propose that we ignore all comments Belgian man ever makes on this page. He caused grief in the past by proposing heaps of new languages, has created endless problems on the Nauruan and now the Yorban and others polinesan Wikipedias. He proved has offensive to every body. He does not justifies his opposition with an explicantations like every body else but just votes . He should be baned from these site permnently.
- I propose that we ignore all dumb unsigned comments. Log in you coward! Furthermore, Nauran is Micronesian, not Polynesian, and Yoruba is not at all Polynesian: it is African, and if you really think it is a Polynesian language you have no business or whatsoever here. Third, Belgian man may have made a mess on na: some time ago, but he really learnt from his wrongs and after all he is striving to get some minor language Wikipedias off the ground. I really would like Belgian to clarify his opposition, but your reaction is dumb beyond description. Caesarion Velim, non opto 11:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
- Wouter, why are you attacking the anon? That's not very Wikilove of you. Yes, perhaps he was a tad rude himself, but really, just attacking him like that is mean (don't bite the newbies). Not only did you call them a "coward", you said they were "dumb", and told them they "have no business ... here". Now, yes, he got some things wrong about languages, but not everybody knows lots of things about languages. In fact, how many people do you think know that Nauruan is actually even spoken anywhere near Polynesia? I'll bet many people would tell you it's African or something. Now, if you're going to be so picky about peoples' knowledge: There is no Nauran language. This "Nauran" language doesn't exist. The anon referred to two languages, Nauruan and Yorban. Not once did they mention "Nauran" or "Yoruba". I don't know about "Yorban", but I know that "Nauruan" is a real language, and "Nauran" is not. So in that way, you were wrong and the anon was right.
- Now, I have to agree with the anon to a certain extent. Belgian man isn't a horrible person or anything, but I can't find any monumental good contributions of his. He has scared away potential native speakers on the Yorùbá Wikipedia by calling them "vandals" and threatening to ban them for frivelous, good-faith contributions (and he wasn't even a sysop, so he couldn't banned them if he tried!). On the Nauruan Wikipedia, he still supports the inclusion of sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-stubs, despite the objections of some other admins there (myself and JHS, IIRC, feel they should be deleted). Although the condition of the Nauruan Wikipedia is gradually improving, it is still probably the worst of any of the _active_ Wikipedias, followed perhaps by the Maori Wikipedia, both operated by people who admit they only know a little bit of the language but nevertheless rule in an authoritarian manner. --Node ue 05:21, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- Node, why are you revealing my first name? Nick names aren't chosen for nothing. About the anon: he seems to be quite a regular cisitor of this page, knowing about the affairs surrounding B.M., so the be-nice-to-newcomers rule does not apply to him. Most probably it is someone we know and who (intentionally, most probably) did not log in. That is cowardice, I think. Besides, the anon really shows he knows nothing about the languages discussed, and under such conditions he should, imo, stay away from this page. 145.97.196.186 08:44, 3 November 2005 (UTC) O damn, logged out by the system myself... well to be sure, I am Caesarion Velim, non opto 08:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- I did not "reveal your first name". You revealed it when you posted to a public mailinglist. The archives are available publicly, so your name, nickname, and e-mail address can all be easily associated. I've had this discussion before, and I still think it's absolutely ridiculous to accuse somebody of "outing" you when the information is a matter of public record. ...now, in reponse to the thing about the anon: Regardless of whether or not he or she is a newcomer, the principles of Wikilove and Assume Good Faith still apply, even if perhaps they are not practiced by that person. On en.wiki, there is a rule called "No Personal Attacks". For calling somebody "dumb" and a "coward", you would've been warned by an admin, and quite possibly somebody would've Removed your Personal Attacks (that's a semipolicy on en.wiki). Now, your use of the word "coward" is obviously an instance of "name calling" rather than an attempt to accurately portray this person -- while they may be a coward in a strict sense, you phrased it as an accusation, rather than as part of a larger context discussing this person's emotional or social background. Similarly, in Japan, the Ainu minority call themselves "ainu", but so many people have used the name in a perjorative manner that it depends on the use. If somebody says "Let's talk about the new law concerning the Ainu and their culture", this will not be offensive. But if somebody (particularly a non-Ainu) says "You're Ainu!!", this is generally considered a racist remark even if it isn't intended as such (perhaps a reaction of surprise from somebody who had assumed they were majority Japanese, or a reaction of an ethnologist who is happy because they were having difficulties finding an Ainu subject to interview). One reason for this is that saying "You're Ainu" (Aìnú dá!) sounds almost exactly the same as saying "Ahh, it's a dog!" (Áq, ínù da!), not just because of that coincidence but because it is used to taunt and harass people in a racist manner -- a racist might say "Áq, ínù da!" to taunt an Ainu person or talk abt them behind their back, or it can be used as a nasty racist way to "warn" people that somebody in the room is Ainu but which can easily be written off as a legitimate nonracist remark -- "well, I thought I saw a dog out the window, but I must've been mistaken..." or "I had the impression of a dog, but it's ambiguous and I may have confused a dog with a person" although the latter is more bizarre, it would certainly save people from getting fired from a job for example. Now, I suppose I've gone on way way way to long about Ainu (a similar thing applies to the indigenous peoples of the Americas -- "Indian" is still a widely preferred name by the indigenes themselves despite its ambiguity, but in many situations its use is considered insulting, racist, or whatever), and obviously "cowards" are not a nationality or culture or ethnic group, but I think the thing regarding a legitimate, fact-based conclusion about somebody vs. a name-calling is based on the wording. --Node ue 01:23, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
- O how nice, likening me to a racist. Node, the person obviously did not log in, probably intentionally. Clearly he is afraid of being recognised. And if you think I am trolling, I will retreat from all Wikimedia projects right now, if you wish. All for your sake, just because I am a racist, do not abide any Wikirules towards people who are equally using ad hominem arguments (or do you really think the anonymous comment should not be considered a personal attack)? Caesarion Velim, non opto 08:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
- Regardless of whether or not this person is a coward, you said "Log in, you coward!" which is name-calling, period. If you had said "I think you are a coward because...", it would still be rude, but it wouldn't be name-calling. Now, a main part of Wikipedian rules of respect is to be nice to others, even when they're mean. Just because somebody uses bad language, doesn't mean you have to return it at them. It's very un-wikilove. Now, if I knew who that person was, I would condemn them too for the tone they took. But I do not. That is one thing about wikis -- anybody who wants to hide behind anonymity can do so. --Node ue 05:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
- O how nice, likening me to a racist. Node, the person obviously did not log in, probably intentionally. Clearly he is afraid of being recognised. And if you think I am trolling, I will retreat from all Wikimedia projects right now, if you wish. All for your sake, just because I am a racist, do not abide any Wikirules towards people who are equally using ad hominem arguments (or do you really think the anonymous comment should not be considered a personal attack)? Caesarion Velim, non opto 08:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
- I did not "reveal your first name". You revealed it when you posted to a public mailinglist. The archives are available publicly, so your name, nickname, and e-mail address can all be easily associated. I've had this discussion before, and I still think it's absolutely ridiculous to accuse somebody of "outing" you when the information is a matter of public record. ...now, in reponse to the thing about the anon: Regardless of whether or not he or she is a newcomer, the principles of Wikilove and Assume Good Faith still apply, even if perhaps they are not practiced by that person. On en.wiki, there is a rule called "No Personal Attacks". For calling somebody "dumb" and a "coward", you would've been warned by an admin, and quite possibly somebody would've Removed your Personal Attacks (that's a semipolicy on en.wiki). Now, your use of the word "coward" is obviously an instance of "name calling" rather than an attempt to accurately portray this person -- while they may be a coward in a strict sense, you phrased it as an accusation, rather than as part of a larger context discussing this person's emotional or social background. Similarly, in Japan, the Ainu minority call themselves "ainu", but so many people have used the name in a perjorative manner that it depends on the use. If somebody says "Let's talk about the new law concerning the Ainu and their culture", this will not be offensive. But if somebody (particularly a non-Ainu) says "You're Ainu!!", this is generally considered a racist remark even if it isn't intended as such (perhaps a reaction of surprise from somebody who had assumed they were majority Japanese, or a reaction of an ethnologist who is happy because they were having difficulties finding an Ainu subject to interview). One reason for this is that saying "You're Ainu" (Aìnú dá!) sounds almost exactly the same as saying "Ahh, it's a dog!" (Áq, ínù da!), not just because of that coincidence but because it is used to taunt and harass people in a racist manner -- a racist might say "Áq, ínù da!" to taunt an Ainu person or talk abt them behind their back, or it can be used as a nasty racist way to "warn" people that somebody in the room is Ainu but which can easily be written off as a legitimate nonracist remark -- "well, I thought I saw a dog out the window, but I must've been mistaken..." or "I had the impression of a dog, but it's ambiguous and I may have confused a dog with a person" although the latter is more bizarre, it would certainly save people from getting fired from a job for example. Now, I suppose I've gone on way way way to long about Ainu (a similar thing applies to the indigenous peoples of the Americas -- "Indian" is still a widely preferred name by the indigenes themselves despite its ambiguity, but in many situations its use is considered insulting, racist, or whatever), and obviously "cowards" are not a nationality or culture or ethnic group, but I think the thing regarding a legitimate, fact-based conclusion about somebody vs. a name-calling is based on the wording. --Node ue 01:23, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
- Node, why are you revealing my first name? Nick names aren't chosen for nothing. About the anon: he seems to be quite a regular cisitor of this page, knowing about the affairs surrounding B.M., so the be-nice-to-newcomers rule does not apply to him. Most probably it is someone we know and who (intentionally, most probably) did not log in. That is cowardice, I think. Besides, the anon really shows he knows nothing about the languages discussed, and under such conditions he should, imo, stay away from this page. 145.97.196.186 08:44, 3 November 2005 (UTC) O damn, logged out by the system myself... well to be sure, I am Caesarion Velim, non opto 08:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- By the way I (conditionally) support this request. Caesarion Velim, non opto 12:10, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
- I propose that we ignore all dumb unsigned comments. Log in you coward! Furthermore, Nauran is Micronesian, not Polynesian, and Yoruba is not at all Polynesian: it is African, and if you really think it is a Polynesian language you have no business or whatsoever here. Third, Belgian man may have made a mess on na: some time ago, but he really learnt from his wrongs and after all he is striving to get some minor language Wikipedias off the ground. I really would like Belgian to clarify his opposition, but your reaction is dumb beyond description. Caesarion Velim, non opto 11:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
- I propose that we ignore all comments Belgian man ever makes on this page. He caused grief in the past by proposing heaps of new languages, has created endless problems on the Nauruan and now the Yorban and others polinesan Wikipedias. He proved has offensive to every body. He does not justifies his opposition with an explicantations like every body else but just votes . He should be baned from these site permnently.
- Oppose - Belgian man 12:30, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
- Well, Chamdarae, the word "porjidlo" is pronounced closely to english "p o r dʒ i d l o", so it may somewhere called "pordjidlo". It is the language of porjidlo minority of Cambodia, the population was maybe 12-16 thousands or more before 1975 when Pol Pot regim had killed a lot. Some where lucky to emigrate to Thailand (illigaly) then to India. The most happy were those, who leaved to Singapore then to Japan (my father among them) but there were to little of them. As far as I know, most of porjidlo in Cambodia work as farmers (or are homeless). --Porjidlo 16:00, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
- Hi Porjidlo. Thanks for telling us a little about the background of the language. It is important for the community to know some details about a requested language before it can be decided upon. Would you know which group of languages Porjidlo is part of or which other languages might be partly intelligible to its speakers? Or maybe you know a website dedicated to the language? You might also want to start an article about P. in one the existing Wikipedias. Next step would be to team up with a few other interested native speakers before starting the wiki. Especially with respect to the very small number of speakers, it is vital to have a couple of committed editors (two native speakers is the minimum requirement) right from the start because it is not so likely that any Porjidlo speakers will accidentally stumble across the wiki in its early stage. Arbeo 16:15, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose (too few speakers for a Wikipedia) Raetius 10:06, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
SupportBlockinblox 03:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC) Oppose, I am not so sure this is any real language now; I am trying to find out if it means something, for example so far I have just found out that the word 'jidlo' happens to be Czech for "food"... Blockinblox 21:47, 17 November 2005 (UTC)- Blockinblox, just because an internet search for "porjidlo" yields no results does not mean it's a fake language. --Node ue 03:00, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, but you may agree with me that this Porjidlo is, on closer inspection, likely to be a hoax. The only results on Google are related to User:Porjidlo and to this request, I want to see a proof of it, otherwise I will not believe it exists. (So I retreat my previous support) Steinbach (formerly Caesarion) 17:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
- Blockinblox, just because an internet search for "porjidlo" yields no results does not mean it's a fake language. --Node ue 03:00, 18 November 2005 (UTC)