Requests for new languages/Wikipedia South Ndebele

submitted	verification	final decision

	This proposal has been approved. The Board of Trustees and language committee have deemed that there is sufficient grounds and community to create the new language project. A committee member provided the following comment: Project is eligible. Please contribute to the test project (link below). For LangCom: StevenJ81 (talk) 14:48, 30 July 2018 (UTC) - Approved on 2024-09-18, phabricator:T375087. --MF-W 14:41, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:

What	Value	Example / Explanation

Proposal
Language code	nr (SIL, Glottolog)	A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name	Southern Ndebele	Language name in English
Language name	isiNdebele seSewula	Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item	Q36785 - item has currently the following values: English label: Southern Ndebele native label (P1705): IsiNdebele instance of (P31)/subclass of (P279): language, modern language / Nguni, Zunda Wikimedia language code (P424): nr writing system (P282): Latin script number of speakers, writers, or signers (P1098): 640,000	Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality	LTR	Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links		Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Site URL	nr.wikipedia.org	langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name	Wikiphidiya	"Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace	Wikiphidiya	usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace	Wikiphidiya Asiqongelane	"Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads	no	Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons. If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin"). Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo		This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone	Africa/Pretoria	"Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces		For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings		Anything else that should be set
Once settings are finalized, a committee member will submit a Phabricator task requesting creation of the wiki. (This will include everything automatically, except the additional namespaces/settings.) After the task is created, it should be linked to in a comment under "final decision" above.

Proposal

IsiNdebele (South Ndebele) is one of the small but official language of South Africa. It is the only remaining language without it own Wikipedia project. This makes finding and supporting the language project almost impossible for native speakers. It is my sincere belief that giving this language an official Wikipedia language project page, would spark activity for the language as was the case with IsiXhosa Wikipedia project which was saved from closure and is today a thriving language project. --Thuvack (talk) 21:14, 18 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I totally I agreed with you. By creating the isiNdebele (Southern) we will ensure that the language is preserve and grow, as many members of this language community will engage and become part of this project. Owaziwako (talk) 18:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Support As we can see, one of the official languages of South Africa, but why there's only pages that created in 2016, where are Ndebele users? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 07:39, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Remember there was never enough awareness about any technological advances about our language. In fact, since our language is the smallest, we are always considered last in most of the projects as people are concerned about profit rather than conserving the language.

Furthermore, we do have article that dated back 1900; However, it is a matter of going to the right people and spark their interest in the project and have them contribute those writings Owaziwako (talk) 17:44, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Another thing is that IsiNdebele is also a language that is mostly used in KwaNdebele of which I for one also found it interesting to communicate with and learn more about it that is why I saw a need to contribute something and make IsiNdebele language to be official in Wikipedia CdTshabangu (talk) 19:25, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, no need to discuss about this years-old comment here. Please rather complete the necessary settings (see last section below / table above). --MF-W 19:47, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Fourie (1921), Van Warmelo (1930), Van Vuuren (1983), De Beer (1986), Skhosana (1996) and others subscribe to the historical fact that the so-called Southern and Northern (ama) Ndebele of the Republic of South Africa constitute a single ethnic group that claims its origin from the ancestral chief, Musi (or Msi). According to these scholars, the (ama)Ndebele originate from KwaZulu-Natal. Long before Shaka's wrath they parted as a bigger clan from their main Hlubi tribe circa 1552 under the chieftainship of Mafana and took their route northwards. The other clan also separated from the main (ama)Hlubi tribe and went south via Basotoland. The clan that went south ultimately became part of (ama) Xhosa Nguni people who are presently found in the Eastern

Cape.

The first group that parted from the main Hlubi group (i.e., (ama)Ndebele) crossed the Vaal River and entered the then Transvaal and settled themselves around eMhlangeni, known as Randfontein, which is on the western side of Johannesburg (Van Vuuren, 1983:12). From eMhlangeni, they moved to KwaMnyamana (also known as Bonn Accord) near Pretoria, and arrived there in 1610.

At KwaMnyamana, (ama)Ndebele were under the chieftainship of Musi who, according to Fourie in Van Warmelo (1930:10), had five sons, namely Manala, Nzunza, Mhwaduba, Dlomu and Mthombeni. However, according to Van Warmelo (1930:10), Sibasa was the sixth son of Musi while Massie in Van Warmelo (ibid. 10) claims that the sixth son of Musi was M'pafuli (or Mphafudi).

Historically, KwaMnyamana is the most important settlement area of the (ama) Ndebele of the Republic of South Africa, because it is the place where the (ama)Ndebele split into two main groups and numerous smaller sub-groups. When Musi died in 1630, the succession struggle ensued between two of his sons, namely Manala and Nzunza, and the tribe split into the Southern and Northern (ama)Ndebele, respectively, as well as other smaller tribes. The Southern (ama)Ndebele comprised the followers of Manala and Nzunza while the Northern (ama)Ndebele consists the followers of Mthombeni. Together with his brother, Nzunza, Mthombeni left KwaMnyamana until at KwaSimkhulu, north of Belfast in the present Mpumalanga Province.

It is at KwaSimkhulu where Mthombeni, the founder of the Northern (ama)Ndebele, parted ways with Nzunza and strategically moved northwards along the Olifant until he reached his present place of abode, around Zebediela. On his way northwards, Mthombeni inherited a new name known as Gegana (or Kekana) and his followers were referred to as the ‘people of Gegana (or Kekana)’ instead of remaining the ‘people of Mthombeni’. In explaining how Mthombeni changed his name to Gegana (or Kekana), De Beer (1986:34) states that “Die naam Gegana is afgelei van die Noord-Ndebelewoord, kugega, wat beten om saam met of parallel met iets te beweeg en verwys na die feit dat Mthombeni en sy volgelinge in hulle noordwaartse migrasie al langs die Olifantsrevier op beweeg het. Daarom word daar ook na hulle verwys as Gegana nomlambodit wil se die gegana wat met die revier (mulambo) opgetrek het.

Reference

Skhosana, P. B. 2010. The (ama)Ndebele of Africa and their name ‘(ama)Ndebele’. University of Pretoria

Settings

@Nqobile69, Owaziwako, Bobbyshabangu, CdTshabangu, Nomsa Skosana, and Lucia Skhosana: Dear contributors, the Language Committee intends to approve the Southern Ndebele Wikipedia. Please fill in the table at the top of the page with the necessary translations for the "Wikipedia" and "Wikipedia talk" namespaces, the desired logo and check if everything else is correct. Thank you. --MF-W 17:16, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@MF-Warburg Thanks for the nudge, we're on it. Bobbyshabangu (talk) 11:29, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bobbyshabangu: For "Project talk namespace", we need the translation of "Wikipedia talk". I assume the current translation only says "Talk". Everything else (logo etc.) can be set later. -- MF-W 12:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great thank you for clarifying this @MF-Warburg, I was busy going through the logo specifications. "Wikipedia talk" has now been translated. Bobbyshabangu (talk) 12:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to nitpick, but is it "Wikipedia Asiqongelane" or "Wikipedia asiqongelane"? We can use this occasion, by the way, to also get the other namespaces translated. See below. --MF-W 13:40, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@MF-WarburgPlease don't feel like you are bothering me. We are working towards the same goal :D. It's actually "Wikiphidiya Asiqongelane". Bobbyshabangu (talk) 14:33, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Creation of the wiki has been requested. --MF-W 14:41, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
"Africa/Pretoria" in the settings is not a valid tzdb timezone. I'm setting the timezone to "Africa/Johannesburg" instead, which seems to be the closest matching valid timezone entry. Cc Bobbyshabangu, MF-Warburg * Pppery * _{it has begun} 21:47, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Pppery Thanks, that's fine too. Bobbyshabangu (talk) 21:15, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for confirming. The timezone won't actually be set on-wiki until some time next week because deployments of that sort aren't done on the weekend and you missed the Thursday configure binge I did because of that. The project name and namespace have already been set. * Pppery * _{it has begun} 21:24, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Namespaces

Please add the translations here:

	NS_MEDIA            => 'Media',
	NS_SPECIAL          => 'Special',
	NS_TALK             => 'Talk',
	NS_USER             => 'User',
	NS_USER_TALK        => 'User_talk',
	NS_PROJECT_TALK     => '$1_talk',
	NS_FILE             => 'File',
	NS_FILE_TALK        => 'File_talk',
	NS_MEDIAWIKI        => 'MediaWiki',
	NS_MEDIAWIKI_TALK   => 'MediaWiki_talk',
	NS_TEMPLATE         => 'Template',
	NS_TEMPLATE_TALK    => 'Template_talk',
	NS_HELP             => 'Help',
	NS_HELP_TALK        => 'Help_talk',
	NS_CATEGORY         => 'Category',
	NS_CATEGORY_TALK    => 'Category_talk',

--MF-W 13:40, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NS_MEDIA => 'Iinrhatjhi',

NS_SPECIAL => 'Khethekileko',

NS_TALK => 'Khuluma',

NS_USER => 'Umsebenzisi',

NS_USER_TALK => 'Yikulumo yomsebenzisi',

NS_PROJECT_TALK => '$1_Yikulumo yephrojekthi',

NS_FILE => 'Isimumathi',

NS_FILE_TALK => 'Yikulumo yesimumathi',

NS_MEDIAWIKI => 'MediaWiki',

NS_MEDIAWIKI_TALK => 'MediaWiki_khuluma',

NS_TEMPLATE => 'umhlahlandlelasakhiwo'

NS_TEMPLATE_TALK => 'Ikulumo yomhlahlandlelasakhiwo',

NS_HELP => 'Lisizo',

NS_HELP_TALK => 'Lisizo_lokubonisana',

NS_CATEGORY => 'Mkhakha',

NS_CATEGORY_TALK => 'Mkhakha_Khuluma',

Please let me know if you need more clarification. Bobbyshabangu (talk) 15:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am surprised that the word for "talk" sometimes goes before the name of the "base" namespace and sometimes after. Also, for the Help_talk namespace, it seems to use an entirely different word? For Project_talk, it seems like the translation contains a word deriving from "project", however this should not be there. $1 is the placeholder for the Project name. Also the translation is entirely different from "Wikiphidiya Asiqongelane" for Wikipedia_talk. This may need to be made more consistent. -- MF-W 18:13, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some words carries different context when used in conjunction with other words. However, I shall need your help in maintaining consistency across all namespaces. For example direct translation for "talk" is "khuluma" while direct translation for "discussion" is "Asiqongelane" I noticed from the instruction settings box its written "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace). Bobbyshabangu (talk) 05:48, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Which word best translates the concept of "talk pages" or "discussion pages" as pages where you can discuss the content of the corresponding article or info page? -- MF-W 12:18, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The word "Asiqongelane" best describes discussions and I would say this is the word that can be used in "talk pages". e.g You and I right now are discussing rather than talking. @Nomsa Skosana kindly confirm this. Bobbyshabangu (talk) 13:30, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Asiqongelane best describes discussion and the context of talk pages or discussion pages. Nomsa Skosana (talk) 13:48, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In that case I'd suggest using the word for all the talk namespaces. -- MF-W 13:52, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NS_MEDIA => 'Iinrhatjhi',

NS_SPECIAL => 'Khethekileko',

NS_TALK => 'Asiqongelane',

NS_USER => 'Umsebenzisi',

NS_USER_TALK => 'Umsebenzisi Asiqongelane',

NS_PROJECT_TALK => '$1_Asiqongelane',

NS_FILE => 'Isimumathi',

NS_FILE_TALK => 'Isimumathi Asiqongelane',

NS_MEDIAWIKI => 'MediaWiki',

NS_MEDIAWIKI_TALK => 'MediaWiki_Asiqongelane',

NS_TEMPLATE => 'Umhlahlandlelasakhiwo'

NS_TEMPLATE_TALK => 'Umhlahlandlelasakhiwo_Asiqongelane',

NS_HELP => 'Lisizo',

NS_HELP_TALK => 'Lisizo_Asiqongelane',

NS_CATEGORY => 'Mkhakha',

NS_CATEGORY_TALK => 'Mkhakha_Asiqongelane', Bobbyshabangu (talk) 16:38, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@MF-Warburg kindly let me know if we still need to change something on the above. Bobbyshabangu (talk) 16:39, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NS_PROJECT_TALK still contains a word for "project", as far as I can see. Maybe that is necessary to make the names of projects fit into the grammar? But if not, it could be left out. -- MF-W 10:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This has now been edited and fixed to :NS_PROJECT_TALK => '$1_Asiqongelane',. Bobbyshabangu (talk) 19:50, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ @MF-Warburg Kindly assist, by adding "Ilwazibuhlakani Lasimahla" which is translated to "The Free Encyclopedia" under the nr logo.