Requests for comment/Concerning sentiments in a particular wiki

The following request for comments is closed. Initiator of this topic has been globally locked. With that in mind, I'm closing this RfC. --❄Mykola❄ 00:38, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

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A wiki that I know better than to name directly here has a userbox option that is very offensive to many members of Wikipedia. Said userbox is not unusued, in fact it is used by dozens of users (41 to be exact as of the time writing this), including many active editors. I know a lot of Jewish and Roma editors here will find the glorification of the SS by this userbox to be deeply offensive and disrespectful. A direct translation of the userbox in question says "This user remembers the feat of the [SS unit name]". I shouldn't have to explain it, but nevertheless it is worth remembering that the SS committed atrocities against many ethnic and religious groups. This is not the only problematic userbox in this wiki, but I am bringing up this one because it is one of the most offensive and nevertheless survived a recent deletion nomination that pointed out the offensive nature of the userbox, to which local editors were not concerned by. I humbly suggest that userboxes that endorse any SS unit or other military grouping affiliated with Nazi Germany be removed ASAP. I am also concerned by the fact that there are several non-blocked accounts that have 88 or 8814 (or some other combination of Nazi dogwhistles thereof) in their handle/username. I think it is nessesary to restrict this kind of behavior in order to create a safe and welcoming environment for editors of all backgrounds. I know that people from the wiki in question won't like this discussion, but it must be had.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 12:09, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Comment Trolling again and again against Ukwiki will lead to a block, or even a ban. Lemonaka (talk) 15:16, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

This RfC has been VERY carefully worded so that there is no direct mention of the particular wiki in question by name. Being deeply offended by a pro-SS userbox and seeking it's removal isn't trolling, it's being a human being. I am not objecting to the existance of Ukwiki, but JUST a userbox! NOTHING on this RfC page is a policy violation. I did not mention ANY users by name either. This is not meant to harass the wiki that has the userbox, just bring awareness of a deeply concerning and racist userbox to other parties who have a right to express their concern about it. I even tried to get the userbox deleted locally on the wiki in question, but sadly the users involved were blind to the problems with it. Please STOP your personal attacks. The fact I have a bad record on Wikipedia doesn't make glorification of the SS any less offensive to the many minority editors of wikipedia.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 15:29, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

STOP! I will notify Ukwiki as a procedural step. They will decide is this a trolling or not. TBH, I really have a terrible headache talking about this topic. Lemonaka (talk) 15:35, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Not mentioning the particular wiki but clearly referring to it doesn't mean that you can get away with trolling. — Summer 15:38, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

This isn’t about ukwiki! This is about a racist userbox is that endorses a violent and genocidal military formation of nazi Germany. If it was on a different wiki I would also file an RfC. I highly doubt people at Roma and Hebrew wikipedias think this is trolling. It’s not a controversial thing to say that SS is affiliated with Nazi Germany. Do I have to explain what the SS did to Jews and Roma? I know many people here don’t like me but that doesn’t make this userbox ok.—-PlanespotterA320 (talk) 16:02, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

No, I didn't in any way mean that supporting the Nazis is ok. I meant that your long-term problematic behaviour often makes others believe that you are continuing the same modus operandi that has led to your indefblocks in English and Russian wikis. — Summer 18:28, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

"modus operandi" I was blocked on enwiki and ruwiki for very different reasons (enwiki even recognized that the block on ruwiki was sketchy) The fact that I file RfCs about concerning behavior (re: Russians saying Yaliboylu people aren't real and other hostile stuff, Ukrainians having a pro-SS userbox) isn't exactly grounds for a ban. I have NEVER intended to offend people by starting RfCs, only wanting to get other people to STOP insulting other editors. (Yes, accusing an ethnic group of starting a hoax to embarass Moscow is offensive. And obviously, at least to sane people, glorification of the SS is deeply gross and offensive). I am NOT a troll! I have made THOUSANDS of uncontroversial, helpful, and productive contributions to many wikis, ranging from finding rare public domain photos to translating articles. And even while I am banned, I continue to help newcomers "learn the ropes" of editing Wikipedia and edit in other wikis!--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 18:32, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Trying to evade a ban cross-wiki, no matter what you faith, bad or good, maybe lead to global ban. Lemonaka (talk) 18:46, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Answering questions from wiki-newcomers via social media and giving them a few pointers, helping them find good sources, sharing newspaper clippings, drawing up copyright calculation charts, etc and other off-wiki activity is NOT ban evasion. It's being a good editor! Wikipedia does not have the right to tell me I'm not allowed to speak to, chat with, and communicate with active editors.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 19:19, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Here's the AFD discussion of the pro-Nazi page OP nominated on Ukraine Wikipedia, other trusted editors on that project confirmed and maybe you will also find out it is just a normal userbox instead what OP called Pro-Nazi userbox or some dogwhistle.

This RFC is just a total lie or calling gibberish (not so civil), OP trying to disruption, Ad hominem or introduce this simple local AFD into Pro or Con Nazi discussion to cheat us on meta. If permitted and this kind of trolling continued, more sysops, stewards and even T&S should be notified. CC@SummerKrut, Sotiale, and WikiBayer: who solved previous problems. Lemonaka (talk) 18:41, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Lie? What part of this RfC is a lie? The fact that the userbox exists? The fact that the SS is affiliated with Nazi Germany? The fact that people use the userbox? The fact that many people find glorification of Nazi military units to be offensive? The fact that the SS slaughtered Jews, Roma, and other innocent civilians? Sure, the wiki in question opposed deleting the userbox, because that wiki has become an echo-chamber of sentiments that don't see Nazi iconography in a negative light. If it was a truly normal userbox (ex, "This user likes baseball"), there would be conterparts of it in many other languages, but there's not, because a userbox like this wouldn't be tolerated in any other wiki. (Certainly not enwiki that's for sure). If you expect people to pretend the SS unit in question WASN'T affiliated with the Nazis, you're out of your mind.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 18:47, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Then just answer me, why the editors, including at least two sysops there didn't say it is a Pro-Nazi userbox as you believe and directly pointed out you were totally wrong?
You don't need to prove you are not cheating, please just answer our question. I have checked why you blocked on Russian Wikipedia, and I believed sysops give you a good block. You are trying to threat others even after you get blocks after blocks. Lemonaka (talk) 18:50, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Trying to catch others in words instead of evid or logic will lead to a long-term wikilawying, a waste of time of both you and me. You have won this on your RFDA of your home wiki. But here is not your home, take care. Lemonaka (talk) 18:55, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Anyway, I have noticed Ukwiki about this discussion on meta. The notification is on RFC noticed Lemonaka (talk) 19:11, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Waffen SS and SS were both evil formations of Nazi Germany. That shouldn't be a hard notion to grasp.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 12:52, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Lie? What part of this RfC is a lie? The fact that the userbox exists? The fact that the SS is affiliated with Nazi Germany? The fact that people use the userbox? The fact that many people find glorification of Nazi military units to be offensive? The fact that the SS slaughtered Jews, Roma, and other innocent civilians? Sure, the wiki in question opposed deleting the userbox, because that wiki has become an echo-chamber of sentiments that don't see Nazi iconography in a negative light. If it was a truly normal userbox (ex, "This user likes baseball"), there would be conterparts of it in many other languages, but there's not, because a userbox like this wouldn't be tolerated in any other wiki. (Certainly not enwiki that's for sure). If you expect people to pretend the SS unit in question WASN'T affiliated with the Nazis, you're out of your mind.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 18:47, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Then just answer me, why the editors, including at least two sysops there didn't say it is a Pro-Nazi userbox as you believe and directly pointed out you were totally wrong?
You don't need to prove you are not cheating, please just answer our question. I have checked why you blocked on Russian Wikipedia, and I believed sysops gave you a good block. You were trying to threat others even after you get blocks after blocks. Lemonaka (talk) 18:50, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Other editors have TRIED to comment in the discussions, but you and the cabal of editors abusing their power to censor a legitimate discussion doesn't make this problem go away. Mass pinging admins to beg for censorship of a legitimate discussion looks pathetic on your part. If you think the userbox is truly normal, go ahead and explain why you think this is not an example of glorification of Naziism (albeit I doubt you are willing to do that considering that it has been clearly explained to you that the SS is affiliated with the Nazis). I for one would like for Wikipedia's Jewish and Romani editors to have an opportunity to be aware of this discussion and post their takes on this. Trying to start an RfC isn't cheating at anything! Discussions are the whole point of an RfC. Sure, go ahead and rub it in my face more that I'm blocked on en and ruwikis. Frankly I would have thought that someone who defends this nationalist of a userbox wouldn't side with Russian nationalists in ruwiki. But oh well, the people at the bottom gotta be thrown under the bus amiright? Begging for me to be blocked for brining up a racist userbox and hounding me in every wiki doesn't make you a better person. Take your W and more on, you're not going to save this userbox from scrutiny. People sooner or later will realize how disgusting it is. Trying to make this all about me just like the Russians did in my first RfC doesn't hide the problem that the userbox is. Nor does your incoherent sentences.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 18:59, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Here's my last warning, stop Ad hominem, focus on content. Mass pinging admins to beg for censorship of a legitimate discussion looks pathetic on your part. this is clearly Personal attacks. Lemonaka (talk) 19:01, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Excuse me? You literally just went on a huge ad homimen tirade against me personally, but then have the nerve to cry ad hominem when I call out your aggressive behavior? The audacity of some people. Saying that an action on your part looks pathetic isn't adhominem. Bitching about an editor you don't like in a mass series of whining is ad hominem. So, as I've told you before, get off your high horse and give up. You're not going to be able to convince any rational impartial people that glorification of the SS isn't Naziist.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 19:06, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

I have never rubbed you face or even have a little thought of doing that g-d things. You said <even while I am banned, I continue to help newcomers "learn the ropes" of editing Wikipedia and edit in other wikis!> Then I'm just talking about why you are banned from Ruwp. Lemonaka (talk) 19:06, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Like I just told you: Answering questions on social media, sharing newspaper clippings with active editors, helping calculate copyright expiration dates, etc is not a violation of wiki policies. I have the right to be active on social media and communicate with people who edit wikipedia, answer their questions, etc. Just a few days ago I was helping a person figure out how to use newspaperarchive.com after they had some technical problems. That's not a bad thing at all!--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 19:23, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

@Tamzin: Am I out of line here (I presume you know more about regulations than I do)? I know I've broken a lot of rules, but I never thought that refering to the SS as "Nazi" was forbidden.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 17:42, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

What to do when a part of the whole (Halychyna SS) differs in many fundamental points from the whole (SS)? Just two facts:

1. Here is a fragment from the anthem of the division:

Stand in line for your native land,

sweeter death than the rattle of chains!

May the bastard die - the Moscow executioner -

the commune is a deception of freedom!

2. Unlike other units formed from former Soviet citizens, the interned servicemen of the Halychyna SS were not handed over to the Soviet government. --31.43.147.91 19:09, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Military units that kill civilians aren't exempt from judgement for their role in the Holocaust just because they have an anthem that you like. Do you seriously think that the Halychyna SS WASN'T an SS unit? If if this unit is subjectively "different" from other SS units (not that an anthem means anything), it's not a matter of dispute that it did massacres (like the massacre at Nizna Boca), was a part of the Waffen-SS, and the Waffen-SS was created specifically for the extermination of Jews and other minorities.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 19:14, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

You wrote a lot about Crimeans. Please be consistent and suggest to remove all soviet-related userboxes. I'd support you then. AS (talk) 19:22, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't cave in to blackmail. And there is a huge difference in a userbox that says "This user is a member of the Soviet Aviation Task force" and "This user remembers the feats of [a genocidal SS unit]". If there was a userbox that said something like "This user remembers the feats of [NKVD unit that deported Crimean peoples]", I would nominate it for deletion. But this userbox (and the one that glorifies the OUN, which did pogroms against Jews) are by far the worst. And I know better than to piss off the Russians any more than I have. Yes, I made the mistake of writing about Crimea. That doesn't mean that I equate the SS (mass murdered Jews and Roma) with the Soviet Union (which was very good to most peoples and gave heavy autonomy to many, but heavily transformed and assimilated smaller and unrecognized peoples).--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 19:28, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

"which was very good to most peoples " — yeah, those millions of starved and death sentenced felt their love. As you can see, our definition of "genocidal unit" are different, and it would take you much more ontological and historiographical efforts to prove your point. Which I believe exceeds topic of a single userbox. AS (talk) 19:59, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Excuse me if I have a hard time pitying people who never got their SSR dissolved, were never called "an invented race" by Gromyko, and do mental gymnastics to rehabilitate an SS unit. Ukraine's alleged suffering in the so-called "Holodomor" (a famine which affected people outside the USSR, like in Slovakia) is laughable compared to the fate of *actually endangered* ethnic groups and peoples. So dry up your crocodile tears and stop making excuses for Nazis. Yes, our defenition of what is a genocidal unit is different - you may want to ignore what the SS did so that you can continue to glorify it, but some of us here, myself included, consider Jews and Romani to be people. Whatever the USSR did to Ukraine (which obviously wasn't that bad considering Ukrainians number in the millions and hold high office everywhere in Ukraine), it was nothing in comparison to what the Nazis (ie, the SS) did to the Jews and Roma. So show a little respect to the innocent women and children slaughtered by the SS and stop equating it with the USSR. If you expect victims of the Nazis to sympathize with Ukraine when it glorifies the SS you absolutely out of your mind.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 20:22, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, I think your statements makes summarizing of this discussion simpler :) AS (talk) 20:28, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

How dare I say that the SS is evil /s. The fact that Ukraine was part of the USSR isn't an excuse for glorification of Nazism.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 23:45, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

I still suspect if this process itself is legitimate, trying to solve a locally previously solved problem on meta, only because the local discussion's result don't satisfy you and you are trying this again and again, even being told not to do so by sysops on meta. Lemonaka (talk) 01:30, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

A local discussion that finds a pro-SS userbox unproblematic just shows that the wiki itself has turned into a Nazi sympathizing echo chamber. Sysops don't have the right to silence legitimate concern about a very racist userbox.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 00:24, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Considering what hot takes we have to deal on social media, like the Jewish president being the main nazi, I think it's just not the time to discuss moronic claims about "Nazi sympathizing echo chamber" — sorry, no respect left for such user. As I said, the glorification of genocidal regimes like Nazi, Soviet or russian, is a complex problem which is solvable only be complex measures, not by "removing a single userbox in single wiki". One of the aspects is, not all states criminalize those regime symbols equally. So basically the multiculturalism (that maps onto wikis) makes it currently impossible to solve, and I don't know what problem can arise if tried (people are generally stubborn). AS (talk) 15:05, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

The fact that there is a war right now is no excuse for glorifying the SS. Period.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 13:11, 27 November 2022 (UTC)