[10:55] == Jon_ [56ad37fe@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.173.55.254] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[10:55] <Austin> Hi Jon
[10:55] <Jon_> Hi Austin
[10:56] <Jon_> Hi Arne, Hi Theo
[10:56] <Theo10011> Hey Jon
[10:57] <Jon_> Theo, thanks for all of the emails, which I found illuminating
[10:58] <aklempert> hi everybody
[10:58] <Theo10011> hi arne, austin
[10:58] <Theo10011> thanks Jon.
[11:00] <Jon_> Shall we start?
[11:00] <Theo10011> I saw you expanded on the charter on the movement wiki, I left some replies and I believe Lyzzy also left a comment about the definitions.
[11:00] <Austin> Sounds good to me
[11:00] <Theo10011> should we wait for bishakha?
[11:00] <Theo10011> I saw she wanted to attend this meeting?
[11:00] <Jon_> Yes, I did some work there to help spark discussion and to move us towards what we will need in Berlin
[11:01] <Theo10011> great.
[11:01] <Theo10011> Will Bishakha be attending, or should we start?
[11:01] <Jon_> I've not heard from Bishakha
[11:01] <Theo10011> ok.
[11:02] <Jon_> Has everyone been able to see the draft ageda?
[11:02] <Jon_> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/Working_group_meeting_2011-3-4
[11:03] <Theo10011> Unfortunately, I don't see Galio, delphine or lodewijk today.
[11:03] <Austin> Lodewijk and Galio both said they wouldn't be here, I believe
[11:05] <aklempert> delphine is coming in a minute
[11:05] <Theo10011> alright.
[11:06] <Jon_> Let's wait for Delphine for item 1
[11:06] <Jon_> Should we skip items 2, 4, and 5 if the key folks are not here?
[11:06] == Abbasjnr [29ccb416@gateway/web/freenode/ip.41.204.180.22] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[11:06] <Austin> And move to the mailing list, yeah
[11:06] <Jon_> Hi Abbas
[11:06] <Abbasjnr> hi
[11:07] <Theo10011> Hey Abbas
[11:07] <Abbasjnr> hello Salmaan
[11:07] <Abbasjnr> Hi all:)
[11:07] <Jon_> Sorry, I meant items 4 and 5 ... Arne, did not mean to skip your item #2
[11:07] <aklempert> ;)
[11:09] <Theo10011> who will be doing the presentation in Berlin?
[11:09] <Abbasjnr> has the chat started or are you guys waiting for someone else?
[11:09] <Jon_> Good question. I am not sure we can decide until we have the final schedules of both the main meetings and the board meeting, which occur in parallel.
[11:10] <Theo10011> Abbas it just started, I believe Delphine might be joining us in a few minutes.
[11:10] <Abbasjnr> ok
[11:10] <Jon_> Arne, while we are waiting for Delphine, is there anything on item 2 for us to cover?
[11:11] <aklempert> yes, mainly my apoligies for not being able to deliver something to this yet - and not even responding to mailing list requests
[11:11] <aklempert> got totally swamped with some conflicting prioritoes over the last two weeks
[11:12] <aklempert> hope to be able to spend some time on accountability and on the charter this week end
[11:12] <aklempert> if anybody else could jump in on the accountability thing, i would appreciate it very much
[11:13] == delphine [~notafish@unaffiliated/delphine] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[11:13] <Abbasjnr> could you please provide a link on the accountability link?
[11:13] <Jon_> Who else was in that group?
[11:13] <delphine> bonjour :)
[11:13] <Jon_> bore da!
[11:13] <Theo10011> Hi delphine
[11:13] <aklempert> Abbasjnr: there isn't anything to link to - except the frankfurt notes
[11:14] <Abbasjnr> OK
[11:15] <aklempert> it was ABBA (Arne, Barry, Bishakha and Alice if I recall correctly)
[11:15] <Theo10011> I am relatively new to the discussion arnie, a little background on what accountability applies to, might help.
[11:16] <Abbasjnr> me too
[11:17] <aklempert> * reporting and transparency
[11:17] <aklempert> * the whole and the parts
[11:17] <aklempert> * should there be synchronization of activities?
[11:17] <aklempert> * Do chapters have to follow movement strategy and priorities?
[11:17] <aklempert> (from the notes)
[11:17] <aklempert> here's more: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/Working_group_meeting_2011-1-29/tough_topics#LEGITIMACY_and_ACCOUNTABILITY
[11:18] <aklempert> From where do entites get their legitimacy?
[11:18] <aklempert> who are they accountable to, and how?
[11:19] <aklempert> i.e. # Minimum requirements for becoming a chapter
[11:19] <aklempert> # Minimum standards for continued chapter status
[11:19] <aklempert> # Goals and key performance indicators
[11:19] <Theo10011> would legitimacy apply to an official status here?
[11:19] <aklempert> not, it applies to all groups
[11:20] <Theo10011> hmm wouldn't it differ from group to groups.
[11:20] == Bishakha [73f21556@gateway/web/freenode/ip.115.242.21.86] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[11:21] <Jon_> Hey Bishakha
[11:21] <Theo10011> on associations for example born out of project work, the authoritative entity doesn't need to be the same as for chapters.
[11:21] <Theo10011> Hi Bishakha
[11:21] <Bishakha> hey, sorry to be late, will try and catch up
[11:21] * delphine hands Bishakha a sausage to go with her ketchup :P
[11:21] <Austin> I'll send you the log of what's been said so far
[11:22] <Bishakha> :)
[11:22] <aklempert> Theo10011: right, this is different for different type of entities
[11:22] <Theo10011> k.
[11:23] <Jon_> Hey Delphine, have you had any more reactions to the emails you sent out last month to internal-l and foundation-l on the roles matrix and all?
[11:23] <aklempert> Theo10011: therefore it would help to get the new roles stuff out before
[11:24] <Theo10011> aklempert: have you seen - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles/groups
[11:24] <delphine> Jon_: no, I haven't had more than what's on the meta page
[11:25] <delphine> there was a thread on foundation-l, but the person who started it was so negative that I couldn't figure out how to respond
[11:25] <Jon_> I remember
[11:25] <delphine> and if _one_ person does not understand anything, and the others are ok or don't say anything, I figured we are kind of ok
[11:25] <Jon_> I agree
[11:27] == Bishakha [73f21556@gateway/web/freenode/ip.115.242.21.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
[11:27] <Theo10011> so will the charter be ready for the berlin meet?
[11:27] <Theo10011> roughly two weeks left.
[11:27] <Jon_> Has everyone had a chance to see the draft charter on MR wiki? http://movementroles.wikimedia.org/wiki/Charter
[11:29] == bishakha [~Bishakha@triband-mum-59.183.59.144.mtnl.net.in] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[11:29] <aklempert> Jon_: I just had a brief look at it. in some areas it feels a bit too specific, and in some it clearly needs more back up
[11:29] <Jon_> it needs a lot of work
[11:29] <aklempert> but overall it's a good start
[11:29] <aklempert> a great start, actually
[11:29] <Theo10011> ya but it seems to shaping up, just wondering if it would be ready in two weeks.
[11:29] <Austin> It has all the points on the page
[11:30] <Theo10011> Jon made some great additions to it this week.
[11:30] <Austin> I think it needs just a little bit more cleanup before moving to meta
[11:30] <Austin> Take out the extra-specific things and boost the vague ones
[11:30] <Theo10011> heh
[11:30] <aklempert> Theo10011: we don't need to be "ready" in the sense of a signable paper
[11:31] <delphine> (ah and Jon_ I wanted to react on Goma's proposal too, about the roles)
[11:31] <Theo10011> I meant to say presentable arnie.
[11:31] <delphine> Theo10011: it's arne ;)
[11:31] <Theo10011> oops sorry.
[11:31] <aklempert> np
[11:32] <Jon_> what would be the right way to respond to Goma's proposal on roles?
[11:33] <Jon_> should we from now on focus all of our efforts and responses onto the draft charter so that we make the best of the next couple of weeks?
[11:34] <aklempert> Jon_: i don't think that we should drop everything else
[11:34] <bishakha> Should we also merge the other info on partner orgs/associations into the relevant sections in the charter?
[11:34] <delphine> Jon_: well there is an obvious question to his proposal, which is "what happens to existing chapters?"
[11:34] <aklempert> some of the other stuff is necessary to understand what we want to achieve with the charter
[11:38] <aklempert> wouldn't the "new models" stuff help in shaping that discussion?
[11:38] <bishakha> arne: yes, i think so
[11:38] <Jon_> it has been very helpful. we've tried to put as much as that as possible on the the charter, with notes where there are issues
[11:39] <Theo10011> I don't agree with Goma's view. Keeping chapter's sovereign and bunching everything else in a partner organization.
[11:39] <Jon_> it will be a key point to discuss in Berlin
[11:40] <Theo10011> The notion of organizing groups around culture or language is bound to lead into problems.
[11:40] <Jon_> I think we will need to address it on the charter (because if we don't it will look like a big hole) and we have to do it in a way that recognizes that different folks have different points of view at this stage
[11:40] <delphine> aklempert: you're right.
[11:41] <aklempert> I agree with jon that we should not just ignore it.
[11:41] <bishakha> can I ask a tangential qs? is the new models stuff out yet? been travelling and catching up with huge email backlog.
[11:42] <Jon_> there was a busy exchange on email about new models, which we have tried to reflect on the draft charter
[11:42] <aklempert> let's put it out then, and hope that we get some more feedback on meta
[11:42] <bishakha> yes, i was part of that, but has the new models thing come on meta?
[11:43] <bishakha> i think it would help clarify...it's got a lot of detail too
[11:43] <aklempert> reflecting it in the charter is good, but it won't help anybody outside of this group how we got there
[11:43] <aklempert> reflecting it in the charter is good, but it won't help anybody outside of this group *understand* how we got there
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[11:45] <aklempert> is there any reason not to put the new models stuff on meta?
[11:46] <Austin> I don't see one
[11:46] <Jon_> well, the new models stuff is all on email strings ...
[11:46] <bishakha> jon: on which ones?
[11:47] <bishakha> excluding the MR string, I mean...
[11:47] <Jon_> there was a discussion which involved Theo, Galio, and, earlier SJ and yourself
[11:47] <Jon_> that was on MR
[11:47] <bishakha> yes, i know, and given how much reaction New Models got among us
[11:47] <delphine1> I think as soon as we put out the new models, we have enough "out there" to back up our charter ;)
[11:47] <Jon_> I agree, Arne, that we should get something onto meta ASAP
[11:48] <bishakha> wouldn't it be good to put it out soon?
[11:49] <aklempert> let's put the text on meta. ideally with a brief list of questions/issues that were raised on the mailing list.
[11:49] <bishakha> arne: should we just cut-paste our comments onto meta?
[11:50] <bishakha> I meant the ones from the list?
[11:50] <Jon_> should we move the charter across to meta as it is, or does it need more work before we can move it over?
[11:50] <aklempert> bishakha: would be also fine with me - not sure about the people who actually made the comments
[11:51] <Austin> Maybe ask, and summarize if not
[11:51] <Jon_> shall we give everyone 24 hours to clean it up, and then move it over?
[11:51] <Theo10011> I think we should make it a bit more presentable, there was a discussion going on the list at the time.
[11:51] <Theo10011> someone needs to summarize it.
[11:51] <aklempert> Austin: waiting for the answers takes time. just summarize, and offer anybody else to copy&paste full comments himself
[11:52] <bishakha> arne: +1
[11:54] == anirudh [~bhati@wikimedia/Sir-Nicholas-de-Mimsy-Porpington] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[11:54] <Jon_> Hi Anirudh
[11:54] <aklempert> Jon_: move it, and invite people to clean it over and comment on meta. we could give everybody 24 hours before we announce it on mailing lists.
[11:54] <Austin> akl: I was thinking "speak within 24 hours or forever hold your peace," but that works too.
[11:55] <aklempert> IMO this is a discussion paper. no need to agree on it as a group
[11:56] <aklempert> (perhaps this should be stated somehwere on the top of the page)
[11:56] <Theo10011> there is a draft template on Meta.
[11:56] <Theo10011> use that.
[11:57] <aklempert> draft implies that there will be a final version at some point. i don't think that's the case.
[11:57] <Jon_> it would be great, too, if we could state clearly on the charter where there are points to discuss
[11:57] <Theo10011> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Draft
[11:58] <Austin> I don't think there's a "for discussion" template on meta, but we can obviously place a note to that effect at the top.
[11:58] <aklempert> Austin: thanks
[11:59] <Theo10011> I can create one if you'd like.
[11:59] <aklempert> please, don't spend time on nice looking templates
[12:00] <Theo10011> I can make it hideous too. :)
[12:00] <aklempert> lol
[12:01] <bishakha> :)
[12:01] <Theo10011> I'm an admin on Meta, I spend most time fixing things, it would be a routine task if you need me to work on the page or something.
[12:04] <aklempert> Austin, you're moving the stuff on meta, right?
[12:04] <aklempert> when will that happen?
[12:04] <Austin> Yes
[12:04] <Austin> I can move it right after the meeting
[12:04] <Austin> Unless we want to stage it on the MR wiki first so people can redact their comments
[12:06] <Austin> Give them the weekend, since it includes comments on a private list, and move it to meta and announce?
[12:06] <aklempert> i thought we agreed to put it on meta without comments, adding a very basic list of questions/issues that were raised
[12:07] <aklempert> and then asking everybody to add his/her comments in detail if they want
[12:07] <aklempert> and after 24 hours: spread the word
[12:07] <Austin> That works
[12:07] <Jon_> Yes
[12:07] <delphine1> yep
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[12:08] == delphine [~notafish@p5B242D4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host]
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[12:09] <aklempert> okay
[12:09] <aklempert> so austin is moving the original version, together with some bullet points on raised issues today
[12:09] <aklempert> austin is also sending an email to MR to inform everybody about the process (comment on meta!, you have 24 hours)
[12:10] <Austin> *nod*
[12:10] <aklempert> and then, tomorrow evening, we can accounce it to foundation/internal-l, asking for feedback and thoughts
[12:10] <aklempert> Austin? are you doing this, too?
[12:11] <Austin> I can do this as well, yes
[12:12] == bishakha [~Bishakha@triband-mum-59.183.59.144.mtnl.net.in] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
[12:12] <aklempert> or maybe Galio wants to do it, or anybody else from the group? however, we need to make sure that it's done. Austin, can you raise that it your email? but please just as an option: default is you're doing this if nobody else did it by tomorrow evening
[12:12] <Austin> Yup
[12:12] <aklempert> great
[12:13] == bishakha [~Bishakha@triband-mum-59.183.37.249.mtnl.net.in] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[12:13] <Jon_> arne: is there anything we need to touch on today to prepare for our meeting on 24th in Berlin?
[12:14] <Jon_> beyond all of the discussion we have just had ... logistics or anything like that, I mean :-)
[12:14] <aklempert> I am not sure. Perhaps we should set up a page on the MR wiki with all the info we have so far? (times, attendees, open questions)
[12:15] <Austin> I can create a page like the one for the Frankfurt meeting
[12:15] <aklempert> that would be great, because currently the info is spread over selveral email threads
[12:15] <Theo10011> will anyone from the group be attending the berlin meeting?
[12:15] <Theo10011> non-chapter folks I meant.
[12:15] <Jon_> James Owen has booked us a room for 9-5 that day
[12:17] <aklempert> Theo10011: everybody who is on MR list, is welcome to join us on Thursday. I am not sure about the actual chapters meeting. Afaik we sent a list with all work group members to the organizers, asking them to allow us to attend their meeting as well
[12:18] <aklempert> Jon, is that correct?
[12:18] <Jon_> Yes, it is.
[12:19] <aklempert> Theo10011: you're joining us in berlin, right?
[12:20] <Theo10011> will try my best to.
[12:20] <Jon_> great
[12:20] <Theo10011> is anyone else joining us for the berlin meeting?
[12:21] <Jon_> I'll be there
[12:21] <Jon_> I think most of us will be there
[12:21] <bishakha> That's great. I have to go now, so bye all, catch you on the next MR step. :)
[12:21] <Austin> Most of the people who've been working on this up until now will be, afaik
[12:21] <Theo10011> bye bishkaha.
[12:21] == bishakha [~Bishakha@triband-mum-59.183.37.249.mtnl.net.in] has left #wikimedia-roles []
[12:21] * aklempert also has to leave in five minutes
[12:22] <Jon_> is there anything else we need to cover in the next five minutes, or should we close the chat and wish everybody a fruitful weekend?
[12:23] <Jon_> our next IRC chat is scheduled for 2000 UTC on 11th March ... should we stick to that timetable?
[12:25] <Theo10011> great.
[12:25] <aklempert> changing the times again (especially on short notice), doesn't sound promising to me.
[12:25] <aklempert> so let's stick with them
[12:25] <Theo10011> Austin: Ping me if you need any help on the pages on Meta.
[12:25] <Jon_> see everybody here at 2000 UTC next Friday, and in the meantime on wiki, email, etc.
[12:26] <aklempert> but perhaps we should try to move more questions on the mailing list
[12:26] <Theo10011> the MR mailing list has been active in the last week.
[12:26] <delphine> bye :)
[12:26] <anirudh> bbye
[12:27] <anirudh> sorry for not pitching in, bar exam day after.
[12:27] <Austin> Theo: will do, tanks
[12:27] <Theo10011> and tanks to you too, good sir. :)
[12:27] <Theo10011> good luck with that anirudh.
[12:28] <Abbasjnr> bye
[12:28] <Jon_> good luck with the bar exam
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[12:28] <Jon_> bye everyone
[12:29] <anirudh> thanks Jon_, bye
[12:29] <Theo10011> byeee
[12:29] <aklempert> thanks, and bye
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