[10:40] == Jon__ [6d9c3a11@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.156.58.17] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[10:43] <Austin> Hey Jon
[10:43] <Jon__> Hey Austin
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[10:56] <Austin> Hi guys
[10:56] <galio> good morning
[10:57] <Jon__> Good morning Galio
[10:57] <Jon__> Looks like Delphine might be here ... hi Delphine
[10:57] <Austin> She was writing e-mails a few minutes ago, so I hope so :)
[10:58] <Jon__> Hi there Shirley
[10:59] <Jon__> Bence and Morgan also said that they would be able to join us
[11:00] <Jon__> Everyone else either sent apologies or did not reply
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[11:00] <Bence> hi
[11:00] <Jon__> Hi Bence
[11:01] <Jon__> Shall we start?
[11:01] <Jon__> Has everyone seen the agenda?
[11:01] <Jon__> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/Working_group_meeting_2011-2-18
[11:02] == anirudh [~bhati@wikimedia/Sir-Nicholas-de-Mimsy-Porpington] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[11:03] <Jon__> Hi Anirudh
[11:03] <anirudh> hi jon__
[11:04] <Jon__> We're just starting the agenda
[11:04] <Jon__> Austin, anything on item #1 - Reactions to meta postings of Frankfurt minutes, etc., following further emails sent out to encourage engagement
[11:04] <Jon__> ?
[11:05] <Austin> There's been some activity on-wiki from the group, but nothing from the broader community.
[11:05] <Jon__> Disappointing
[11:05] <Austin> Very much so
[11:06] <Jon__> Last time Delphine and you were chatting about sending out emails to encourage participation ... any luck on that?
[11:06] <Austin> I'm writing an article for the Signpost that might get some encouragement
[11:06] <Jon__> Great
[11:06] <anirudh> that's cool.
[11:06] <Austin> The audience is primarily the English Wikipedia, but it's something
[11:06] <delphine> hi
[11:06] <Jon__> Hi Delphine
[11:07] <Jon__> We just covered item #1 on the agenda and can talk about #2 - the roles matrix
[11:07] <Jon__> Thanks for putting that up on meta
[11:08] <Jon__> I see Anirudh has helped you with that
[11:08] <Jon__> Have you had any response from within the group or beyond?
[11:09] <delphine> well, to be fair
[11:09] <delphine> I finished this yesterday
[11:09] <delphine> and did not advertise it
[11:10] <delphine> so, no :)
[11:10] <Jon__> OK
[11:10] <Jon__> is it ready for prime time?
[11:10] <delphine> it is
[11:10] <delphine> at least I think it is
[11:10] <delphine> :)
[11:10] <Jon__> I think it is as well
[11:10] <Jon__> can we link it to our main page on meta and invite comment?
[11:10] <delphine> yes
[11:11] <Jon__> great
[11:11] <Austin> I wasn't aware it was finished, great
[11:12] <Jon__> Perhaps mention it on our main page on meta in the section on "How you can help"
[11:12] <Bence> was just going to suggest that
[11:13] <delphine> (Lodewijk says he can't make it and asks for forgiveness :P)
[11:13] <Jon__> Once it is there we could send out emails to lists
[11:13] <Jon__> that might get comment on the roles matrix as well as more participation broadly
[11:13] <anirudh> to gain clarity on the matrix, should we exclude groups that are not legally recognized or recognized by the foundation?
[11:14] <Austin> Just added it to "how you can help"
[11:14] <delphine> anirudh: I don't think we should exclude anything
[11:14] <Jon__> Yes, it should be as inclusive as possible
[11:15] <delphine> anirudh: but you should feel free to add your comments to the talk page ;)
[11:16] <Bence> he Meta page is quite difficult to navigate.. we might want to expose the tough topics and the the other outcomes of the frankfurt meeting and make the outdated parts ("comment on the original proposal", etc.) a bit less prominent
[11:16] <delphine> (actually, Lodewijk sends regards)
[11:16] <delphine> Bence: huh?
[11:16] <Jon__> Delphine, last week you had a view on the kind of email that might elicit the most engagement on our page on meta ... do you want to send an email to foundation-l and internal-l?
[11:17] <Jon__> Bence. No harm in simplifying our main page on meta a bit
[11:17] <delphine> I guess I will do that
[11:17] <delphine> the email that is
[11:17] <Bence> I mean [[meta:movement roles project]], you have to click twice to get to the interesting parts (e.g. the tough topics and the other work in progress)
[11:18] <Austin> I was just thinking that even the "how you can help" list is a bit tl;dr
[11:18] <delphine> Austin: so was I
[11:18] <Austin> And that the immediate action items can be set out a bit
[11:18] <delphine> you might want to have a section that goes "hot topic of the week"
[11:18] <delphine> or something :)
[11:18] <delphine> for the help section
[11:18] <Austin> Something like that, yeah
[11:18] <Jon__> that is the section that should stand out better ... the other parts are OK
[11:19] <Bence> or links to the items (the "how" or "where" of how to actually help)
[11:19] <Jon__> I'm not sure "Tough Topics" where we need the most help now, as that was part of the prep for the meeting in Frankfurt ... it would be great now if we could get people to look at the roles matrix
[11:21] <galio> people should look at the hot topic of the moment, surely
[11:21] <Austin> D'oh, edit conflict
[11:21] <Jon__> absolutely ... is not our hot topic the roles matrix?
[11:21] <galio> and perhaps, regarding the multilingual issue, we should try to get that one translated in as many languages as possible
[11:21] <galio> during its focus time
[11:21] <galio> yup
[11:22] <Jon__> Galio ... anything on "new models"?
[11:22] <galio> (and forgive me if I talk nosense, it's just that I haven't yet wake up :P)
[11:22] <Jon__> LOL.
[11:22] <delphine> the problem about translating it
[11:23] <delphine> is that man, in order to reconcile everything afterwards
[11:23] <delphine> it's going to be... a pain :)
[11:23] <galio> no, but I had the idea of "streamlining" the puntual hot issues about new models
[11:23] <galio> in a mail to our list during the weekend
[11:24] <galio> once we are all synced I can write a new section in the wiki for it
[11:24] <galio> during the first days of the coming week
[11:24] <galio> yup, it's going to be a total pain and we won't get hardly anything translated
[11:24] <galio> buy we still haven't thinked very much about how to overcome the linguistic gap
[11:25] <galio> and I'm supposed to be worried by it, only that at 8am I still can't think very much about it
[11:25] <galio> but my plan is, say
[11:25] <galio> we have the meeting notes
[11:25] <galio> and regarding the new models part, I find them somewhat confusing
[11:26] <galio> too many question marks of different nature and intensity
[11:26] <galio> we gotta define in a more clear way our main agreement as a preliminary proposal for discussion
[11:26] <anirudh> it would be nice to invite participation from the non-English communities, but would translate into problems with organization. Do you think it would be possible to have a translator for each language working to translate the matrix for us?
[11:26] <galio> and then be able to detail the actual rough corners
[11:27] <Austin> The translation committee might be able to help out, there
[11:27] <Austin> If we identify it as a "must be translated" page
[11:28] <galio> aka "what would be the actual difference in competence and attributions between Wikimedia chapters and the partner orgs that we're proposing to recognize in these hot aspects that we haven't yet really discussed"
[11:28] <galio> Austin: that's why I was thinking that, if we have one, it's the hot topic of the ~week
[11:28] <Austin> The problem is that we need to give them something stable, or we'll just have several three-week-old revisions in five different languages
[11:29] <galio> I was thinking on reaching a base consensus via mailing list on our "stable" proposal for discussion regarding new models
[11:29] <galio> and anything else, other than our replies, would come from people from outside of the MR group
[11:30] <galio> I mean, our base disagreements or whatever important points we want to make should also be translated
[11:30] <Jon__> do you mean the MR mailing list for new models?
[11:31] <galio> yes, but only for getting sure we're all OK about what we'll be putting in the wiki, as I find that right know the notes are not that clear
[11:31] <galio> and so we can get something that can be, on the other hand, "translatable"
[11:31] <Jon__> Would it make sense to put something up first on meta or MR wiki so we can help make it clear?
[11:32] <galio> we can use the MR wiki, yes, but I would not put it in Meta until we ourselves have it clear
[11:33] <galio> and I'm not talking about lack of agreement on the actual proposal for discussion, but about what the actual proposal for discussion is about
[11:33] <Austin> I know I'm derailing the agenda, but I think it's appropriate here to bring up day-to-day communication
[11:34] <Austin> I would go with what galio proposes, but let's have some mailing list discussion to go with it
[11:35] <Jon__> sounds good
[11:36] <Austin> We're generally happy to leave the meeting with "Sounds great, see you next Friday!" and then have Austin send an e-mail on Monday and poke people via IM on Tuesday and Wednesday, but we saw how that worked last week.
[11:36] <Jon__> Austin, as the self-proclaimed "whip" of the process, could you create a page on meta so we can track each of these tasks, so that whoever is in the lead of each one can keep us up to date?
[11:36] <Austin> Sure, I'll just update the task list page.
[11:37] <delphine> Austin: you need to get a fiercer whip man :)
[11:37] <Jon__> Sounds like today we've agreed to send out emails to foundation-l and internal-l, but not who should send them out, for example
[11:37] <Austin> I clearly need to apply a more liberal helping of shame. :)
[11:39] <galio> wasn't Delphine sending them?
[11:39] <delphine> anirudh: can I take your stuff from the talk page?
[11:39] <delphine> right now it's just a draft of stuff we've integrated anyway
[11:40] <anirudh> delphine, yep
[11:40] <anirudh> I have already integrated most
[11:40] <anirudh> in the intro bit
[11:41] <Austin> Quick point of order: does anyone need to leave at 1200 UTC? I have a hard deadline of 1230 for a doctor's appointment, but it looks like we're on track to rush through the last few items.
[11:42] <Austin> Can we go over if need be?
[11:42] <anirudh> fine by me.
[11:42] <Jon__> Yes, I need to leave at 1200 UTC
[11:42] <Austin> Okay, that's settled
[11:42] <Austin> Let's pick up the pace, then :)
[11:43] <Jon__> Shall we talk about the charter? http://movementroles.wikimedia.org/wiki/Charter
[11:43] <Jon__> Austin, is this ready for us to contribute?
[11:44] <Austin> It has been for some time now, per my e-mails. :)
[11:44] <Austin> It's still basically our rough meeting notes
[11:44] <Jon__> Then please accept my apologies for not having contributed to it yet
[11:44] <Austin> I think the contents warrant another IRC meeting alone
[11:45] <Jon__> Shall we make it the main topic of our next IRC chat?
[11:45] <Austin> Which I was going to suggest on the list a few days ago, but got derailed, sorry
[11:45] <Austin> I think sooner
[11:45] <Austin> It was supposed to go out today
[11:46] * delphine sent her email
[11:46] <delphine> come what may
[11:48] <delphine> has everyone died?
[11:48] <Jon__> not yet
[11:49] <Jon__> I was just reading the email that you sent out
[11:49] <Austin> Same
[11:49] <Jon__> looks good. I hope it brings in participation
[11:50] <Austin> Meeting times are obviously horrible to coordinate, but just to throw this out there, who here can do an IRC session on Sunday or Monday at this time to discuss the charter?
[11:50] <delphine> sunday could work
[11:50] <delphine> maybe we'd get more ppl?
[11:50] <Austin> That's my thinking
[11:51] <anirudh> I'm available.
[11:51] <Jon__> Why not use our time slot next Friday?
[11:51] <Jon__> We picked Friday before as everyone thought it was the day that was best
[11:51] <Austin> This doesn't necessarily need the whole group, it's more of a workshop
[11:51] <Austin> Not a formal meeting
[11:52] <Austin> Get a few people together and maybe make some progress
[11:52] <galio> I think I'll be able to attend on Sunday
[11:52] <galio> but now I need to leave
[11:53] <Austin> At any point throughout the week I can IM Delphine or Anirudh or Bence and get some thoughts, but if we get four of five people together it's usually more productive
[11:53] <galio> bye, write you soon
[11:53] <Austin> Later galio, thanks for being here
[11:53] <Jon__> TTFN gaio
[11:53] <anirudh> I agree, Austin, best to have as many meets as a small group of participants can agree to, and send summaries to the mailing list for input.
[11:53] <Austin> That's my thinking exactly
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[11:55] <Bence> I would try to make saturday/sunday, but I also have to leave now
[11:55] <Austin> We can contribute individually on the wiki, but when we only meet on a weekly basis things get postponed.
[11:55] <Austin> So this is just that, but with more commitment and the benefit of working in a group.
[11:56] <delphine> (/me should have put bit.ly links in there to track the clicks :P)
[11:56] <Bence> bye
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[11:56] <delphine> bye
[11:56] <Austin> It looks like we're losing everyone, but the final two points are on two people who aren't here.
[11:57] <delphine> heh
[11:57] <Jon__> yes ... let's put them on the agenda for next time ... and talk offline about process, too
[11:57] <Austin> Agreed
[11:58] <delphine> yep. Well, Austin, can you send a "summary" of deadlines that are already dead and such?
[11:58] <delphine> so we can see where we're at?
[11:58] <Austin> Already drafting
[11:58] <delphine> great :)
[11:58] <Jon__> Anything else we need to cover before we "officially" close the chat"
[11:58] <delphine> yes, this time was designed for Morgan, who never makes it, we need to find another time that does not leave out other UTC+ out
[11:59] <delphine> :D
[11:59] <Austin> Well, Bishakha had a special circumstance :)
[11:59] <Austin> She said she'd probably be able to make it in the future
[11:59] <delphine> well, she said it was not exactly a convenient time for her
[11:59] <anirudh> I don't sleep so I am fine with anytime.
[11:59] <delphine> but anyway
[11:59] <Austin> Not convenient, but doable
[11:59] <Jon__> what time do you think will maximize attendance, given our experience?
[11:59] <delphine> if y'all feel the 15 UTC was a better time
[12:00] <delphine> Jon__: my experience ?
[12:00] <delphine> is that there is no good time :)
[12:00] <delphine> ever
[12:00] <delphine> and that once in a while on the week-end might be our best chance of having as many people as possible
[12:01] <delphine> I think we should identify a few key people that need to be there most of the time
[12:01] <delphine> and just work around that
[12:01] <anirudh> Has anyone heard from Alice about the clusters she collected from the Frankfurt meeting?
[12:01] <delphine> I find it a bit weird that Arne seldom gets to participate in any of the chats
[12:01] <delphine> anirudh: yeah, she posted them on meta
[12:01] <anirudh> ok, thanks.
[12:01] <Austin> It's sort of axiomatic that weekends are best for community members, which annoys WMF staff members.
[12:01] <delphine> lol
[12:02] <delphine> which I can understand, and that's why I say "maybe once ina while
[12:02] <delphine> or something
[12:02] <delphine> anyway
[12:02] <delphine> I have to go as well :)
[12:02] <Jon__> OK. TTYL
[12:02] <anirudh> have a good day, delphine
[12:02] <Jon__> Thanks everybody
[12:03] <delphine> thanks guys :)
[12:03] <anirudh> thanks, jon__, austin.
[12:03] * anirudh is off.
[12:03] <Austin> I'll be sending an e-mail shortly
[12:03] <Austin> Later, all
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