Meta:Babel/Archives/2012-10

Pre-RFC discussion about incorrect article counts

Please see Article counts revisited and Talk:Article counts revisited. As pointed out on both pages, the background information (more than you ever wanted to know) is collected at User:Dcljr/Article counts. I'd like some comments on whether we should have an official RFC about this and, if so, what issues we might want to address in the RFC. - dcljr (talk) 03:27, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

it.wiki serial copyright violations: possible derivative issues

It has been reported that a large number of articles were inserted with a copyright violation by user Teodoro Amadò. There is an ongoing cleaning and deleting operation on it.wiki, I recommend that local projects receive a notice about possible derivative copyright violation: a case has already been found on es.wiki. Any clue about this kind of issues? Thank you for any help in identifying and isolating translations. M/ (talk) 19:50, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

If you know the places that you want to target, ie. Village pumps, you could utilise User:EdwardsBot to put a message to the wikis, or to point them to a central page that explains the issue(s). — billinghurst sDrewth 02:50, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

One of the most active users dealing with this issue, has prepared a list of places to target. The message is being reviewed at the moment and will be ready ASAP. --M/ (talk) 16:47, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

The message to be posted is:

"It has been reported that a large number of articles were inserted with a copyright violation by user Teodoro Amadò. There is an ongoing cleaning and deleting operation on it.wiki, I recommend that people translating from Italian language thoroughly check those two lists 1 and 2 for possible derivative copyright violation, excluding articles marked as «innocuo/innocua/innocui/innocue» since they do not contain copyright violations."

Thank you, M/ (talk) 19:10, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

There are complaints at Wikimedia_Forum#Global_message_delivery about how the system is being used. Regards. -- MarcoAurelio (talk) 21:39, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

An Arbitration Committee for Vietnamese Wikipedia

Vietnamese Wikipedia doesn't have Arbitration Committee. If an administrator blocks or bans a member infinitively the member doesn't have any venue to appeal. My case is a typical example. This is my story :

I’m an active member of Wikipedia. I contribute many contents in many topics. You can see my history. I used Maraka account from August 2, 2012 to August 26,2012. I used public computer so security level is very low. Someone hacked my account so I had to create Soranto account at August 27, 2012. I used Soranto account from August 27, 2012 to October 7, 2012. Soranto account was hacked again like Maraka account so I created Saboche account at October 10, 2012. I never use 2 accounts at the same time. I only use another account when I lost control my current account.

At September 1, 2012 IP 118.71.4.68 suggests replacing Vietnam Mural picture by another picture. At September 18, 2012, I used Soranto account to replace Vietnam Mural picture by Vietnam Sides picture created by me on Vietnam War Summary because I thought Vietnam Mural picture only presents America side but there are 4 sides in Vietnam war. Some other members didn’t agree with me so we made a discussion on this topic at Vietnam War Talk Page(Vietnamese version). The discussion started at September 13, 2012 then closed at October 2, 2012. Other members didn’t present the suitable reason to replace Vietnam Sides picture by the old Vietnam Mural picture so we still used Vietnam Sides picture.

At October 10, 2012, I created Saboche account to replace Soranto account because Soranto account was hacked. At that time the discussion on picture at Vietnam War Summary had finished at October 2, 2012.

At October 13, 2012 I started a discussion on picture of Vietnam War Summary at Vietnam War talk page because some other members continue want to replace Vietnam Sides picture by Vietnam Mural picture. At this time I used Saboche account because I lost control Soranto account. In the discussion I said “There are 2 sides, each side has 2 sub sides . The Soranto’s picture is very suitable. It presents 2 sides, each side has 2 sub sides. Why do we have to turn back to the old picture ?” I said that because I think Vietnam Sides picture is suitable and the owner of the picture is Soranto account so I have to use “Soranto’s picture” to call the picture.

At October 14, 2012 the member named Vô tư lự requested DHN administrator checked Saboche account because he doubted Saboche is a sock puppetry of Soranto. DHN administrator discovered that Soranto and Saboche are logged in from one computer. DHN concluded that Saboche is the sock puppetry of Soranto. He immediately blocked Soranto and Saboche infinitively. The reason for his action is Saboche was created to make an illusion of support.

At October 15, 2012, I requested DHN to remove blocking Soranto and Saboche and started a discussion about this problem at Saboche's talk page. I presented all evidences to prove that I was not guilty as I’m presenting to you but DHN denied removing blocking Soranto and Saboche. He talked that I used Saboche account to make an illusion of support. He didn’t care the fact that I had lost control Soranto before I created Saboche account. He talked that’s my bussiness so he didn’t want to consider. I claimed that I wiil make an amendment request to Arbitration Committee if we can’t agree with each other. He talked that I have right to do that.

I also cited some policies to prove that Saboche is an alternative account to replace the old compromised account Soranto in case I lost password. DHN should not check user and block alternative account infinitively in case member only uses one account at any time. DHN didn’t care all policies I had cited. He didn’t want to discuss any more. He kept silent while I was asking him many times continue discussing to resolve my case.

Now I have only one choice that is to make an Amendment request to Arbitration Committee. I hope arbitrator will remove blocking Saboche and Soranto account.

I created an Amendment request named The Saboche case at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment but that's not the appropriate venue to resolve my case.

I hope Wikimedia project will create an Arbitration Committee for Vietnamese Wikipedia. Saboche (talk) 14:07, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

In general, only local communities of sufficient size can make their own arbitration committees. Only a very small fraction of Wikimedia projects actually have one.--Jasper Deng (talk) 19:20, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

MiszaBot has stopped archiving main ns pages

I have just noticed that MiszaBot stopped archiving main ns pages back in June, and none of us have noticed that it stopped. It seems to be working properly in user and meta ns. Anyone got any ideas on how to get the bot back in action across the site? — billinghurst sDrewth 02:47, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Some do noticed but though it was transitory :-). I've left a message today at w:User talk:Misza13 (permanent link). Hope that the issue can be investigated and resolved. Best regards. -- MarcoAurelio (talk) 21:35, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

The script has been recently modified and it's the source of the problem (which I've already reported). Using a some months old version of the script, it works properly. If you don't mind, I'll be running my bot for those pages until MiszaBot's script is again working. Regards, -- MarcoAurelio (talk) 20:42, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Just posted this to the mailing list, but in pyrev:10149 defaultNamespace was set to 3. By removing that (line 293) it should work again. Legoktm (talk) 02:13, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I did the test removing "defaultNamespace=3" from the script and the bot works fine. I've suggested to remove that line from the code. Regards. -- MarcoAurelio (talk) 10:21, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

This bug was caused by pyrev:5020. I've fixed it in pyrev:10621 and pyrev:10622. You shouldn't change defaultNamespace because it's the default for talk spaces archived by that bot by default. Use page option like --page="m::Mainpage" instead.  @xqt 10:54, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Will MiszaBot (talk · contribs) then be able again to automatically archive those pages outside the User_talk namespace? I don't own MiszaBot, it runs automatically once a day here at the same hour. I doubt the botowner will start typing commands in the console to have those pages outside the namespace 3 archived... Perhaps I'm not understanding fully the change. Regards. -- MarcoAurelio (talk) 11:04, 28 October 2012 (UTC) Yep, it works cronned: [1] -- MarcoAurelio (talk) 11:07, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Simple French Wikipedia proposal based on français fondamental

In an English reference desk entry (en:Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Equivalents_to_Basic_English.2FSpecial_English_in_Spanish.2C_French.2C_and_German.3F), somebody mentioned that there is fr:français fondamental, an artifically restricted French that could be an equivalent to en:Basic English or en:Special English, the varieties that are the basis of the Simple English Wikipedia. I am not intimately familiar with "français fondamental" but I would like to receive input on how well it can be used to build a Simple French Wikipedia before I make a formal proposal about it.

In reviewing the failed proposal for Simple French, Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_French_Simple, I found that:

• français fondamental was not mentioned
• Simple English also does not have its own ISO code, but it does have standardized limited forms that can be used as a basis. The same situation exists with French.

In regards to common arguments:

• If one is in favor of a "Wikipedia Kids" for Simple English or other simple versions of languages, one can develop "Simple XXX" now and then transfer the content later if "Wikipedia Kids" is approved as its own entity.
• One person mentioned that it's difficult to impossible to cover complex topics with "simple" versions of languages. In general it may be difficult to introduce complicated/precise topics to relatively uneducated people and/or functionally illiterate people. Also, in some natural languages there may be a lack of words or concepts used to discuss modern/scientific topics. It is possible for natural languages to use loanwords, etc but with some languages it can become very complex or difficult. In some countries people switch to second or third languages just to discuss scientific and technical topics.

Who would be the audience? I would try to mirror Simple English Wikipedia

• Children from French speaking backgrounds
• Adults from French speaking backgrounds who have learning difficulties, are functionally illiterate or are otherwise not well educated
• Residents of countries with French as a second or third language (particularly those in Africa) who have had difficulty in learning French or have only learned a little bit of French. It can be helpful if their native language is not represented on Wikipedia, or if their native language is underdeveloped and/or has profound difficulty with scientific and/or modern topics.

WhisperToMe (talk) 06:34, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

• Someone told me about a 2011 mailing list entry where the person said that a "simple" language can be approved if "the language should be a "world language" with many L2 users, and there must be a reliable, published specification of the controlled language to be used." He further added "It is likely that just Wikipedia in simple French would be approved." WhisperToMe (talk) 11:16, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello there, I learnt French as a second language, and I found it relatively difficult to learn. I am also active in Simple English Wikipedia. As to the audience: Let me stress that currently, at Simple Englih Wikipedia, we do not agree about our audience; I'll briefly comment:

• Taking children as an audience brings up two problems: First, some of them "may not be old enough" to see/read about certain topics, mostly related to human sexuality. Second, some people may want to simplify articles about "complex" topics, as they are taught at universities. You won't be able to "sell" those articles to children.
• People learning the language as an additional language are a good target group, as this choice does not limit your choice of articles. The people you are writing for could be highly brilliant, established researchers, that simply have not learned French so far. Writing for people with learning difficulties probably confronts you with a number of problems, related to the nature of the learning difficulties.
• Adopting a restricted vocabulary ("word lists, the x most common words in French") effectively eliminates the possibility of serious scientific writing. Scientific language relies on the use of precise vocabulary. For certain terms, there simply are no "words with the same meaning, that are easier to understand". The same is true for using metrics to judge how difficult an article is to understand: Using shorter sentences will in most cases make the article easier to understand, but this is not always the case.

I would look forward to seeing a "Simple French" project emerge; French is a language that looks more difficult to learn than for example English.--Eptalon (talk) 14:39, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

If this project were started, I would be among the active early contributors. Pourquoi-pas? --Ansei (talk) 17:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind helping either :) - I know just a little bit of French WhisperToMe (talk) 19:56, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I think it is in the Wikipedia community (possibly on fr:WP:LB) that I first learnt about the simple french website of Montréal City's administration. So this kind of proposal must have more or less been debated in the Wikipedia community before. Yes, I found some links: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Le_Bistro/2_mai_2005#Wikip.C3.A9dia_pour_les_personnes_d.C3.A9ficientes_intellectuelles (2005) ; https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Le_Bistro/2_mai_2006#Wikip.C3.A9dia_en_fran.C3.A7ais_simple.3F (2006) Teofilo (talk) 20:29, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

That's pretty interesting about the Montreal website. What do you think the consensus among the French Wikipedians was? I would like to wait a few days for input and then file a formal proposal to start Simple French with the Meta Language committee. I just started en:Français fondamental so EN would have an article about it. WhisperToMe (talk) 20:43, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Have you brought this up at fr.wikipedia? Since the French Wikipedia seems like a natural place to find contributors to get the project started, I was wondering if you'd asked for input there yet? --Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 07:40, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I posted a link to this discussion on the Bistro on the French Wikipedia: fr:Wikipédia:Le_Bistro/17_octobre_2012#Proposition_.C3.A0_propos_de_Wikip.C3.A9dia_en_fran.C3.A7ais_simple - I also notified the English (en:Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)#Possibility_of_developing_French_simple_Wikipedia_using_fran.C3.A7ais_fondamental) and Simple English Wikipedias (simple:Wikipedia:Simple_talk#Proposal_for_French_Simple_Wikipedia) WhisperToMe (talk) 07:42, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I was told on the Simple discussion (simple:Wikipedia:Simple_talk#Proposal_for_French_Simple_Wikipedia) that User:Evertype knew about Langcom's attitude towards this, so I en:User_talk:Evertype#Attitude_towards_a_simple_French_Wikipedia contacted him WhisperToMe (talk) 12:39, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I would also be happy to help. Yottie (talk) 20:31, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I started Requests for new languages/Wikipedia French Simple (2) WhisperToMe (talk) 02:08, 29 October 2012 (UTC)