Language committee/Archives/2007-09

For a summary of discussions, see the archives index.

Spanned discussions

The following discussions span multiple months and are archived in the first applicable archive:

"Wikipedia Korean Hanja" (June 2006).
"Wikipedia Sahkan" (August 2007).

Wikipedia Sassarese

Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
08 September 2007 11:51

<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
Bèrto 'd Sèra
08 September 2007 14:54

Hoi,
Yes, the language used by the Sardinian wikipedia at the moment is NOT what described by the code. We have another BE case. There is no code for the artificial language issued by the Italian government.
I’d rather do exactly what we did with BE.
Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
08 September 2007 15:07

<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
Bèrto 'd Sèra
08 September 2007 18:15

Well,
Just watch our steps to avoid the be-x-old drama fire up again. My opinion is that we should put them on “hold” until they get their code. If they can get it easily, then wonderful, they are moved to the new code and the problem is over.
But if we make even just a slighter preference for an Italian language we are going to have people pointing out that there are 2 italians in LangCom, and so Italian languages are treated with velvet gloves. I’d say that myself, if I was out there. There must be one single law for all.
As per Sassarese, I’m in favor of its approval.
Sabine Cretella
08 September 2007 20:44

In fact there is the problem that the actual Sardinian wikipedia uses the "unified Sardinian language" with a code that stands for the four living languages. The unified language has been "created" and is the one accepted by the Italian state, but has no official ISO 639 code.
"*In Bichipedia impreamus sa Limba Sarda Comuna <http://sc.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limba_Sarda_Comuna> de sas normas de referèntzia ufitziales <http://www.regione.sardegna.it/documenti/1_72_20060418160308.pdf>."
this leads to a pdf with the title LIMBA SARDA COMUNA Norme linguistiche di riferimento a carattere sperimentale per la lingua scritta dell’Amministrazione regionale
Common Sardininan language Linguistic reference standards on experimental level for the language written by the regional administration
As to this document: it states the Italian State opinion, that the four varieties are all very similar ... well: when it comes to linguistic development they are not and also their grammar is different due to the various influences that are there. We will very likely get into trouble with this particular thingie ...
That is: they (sc.wiki) could remain, but not with the acutal code they are using ... uhmmmmmmm ...
I just noted the further discussion and added myself a note: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Sassarese#General_discussion
Sabine Cretella
08 September 2007 20:06

Yes, to my opinion they should have the conditional approval - so they can start to work on UI and contents.
Bèrto 'd Sèra
10 September 2007 07:00

Hoi, On a second thought: what’s the ISO code for sassarese-only? If we give them SC they cannot use for sassarese only. It’s 4 flavors of the language that must go in. We need to solve this. I’m willing to have the SC code restored to normality, not to create one more exception.
See: http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_iso639.asp?code=srd
Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
10 September 2007 07:08

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Bèrto 'd Sèra
10 September 2007 07:39

In fact, they must encompass ALL 4 flavs, or request an individual code.
Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
10 September 2007 09:10

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Bèrto 'd Sèra
10 September 2007 09:16

Then they have no ISO code. I have to retire my approval. Should we contact them and explain the situation? Maybe they can expand the request or request their code.
Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
10 September 2007 09:19

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Bèrto 'd Sèra
10 September 2007 09:26

Hoi,
Oh! I missed that bit. Then we are back in operation. It’s okay for the approval and there is no conflict as per SC. Thanks for clearing this :-)
Sabine Cretella
10 September 2007 07:14

SC is the code for the Macro language "Sardinian" - that is it includes all four of the natual Sardinian languages.
The Limba Sarca Comune does not have an ISO code. Nomally I would have said they should have shared on wiki, but having four languages on one wiki is indeed problematic unless we don't have Multilingual Mediawiki. And when it comes to the Sardinian languages the differences among them is partly really much (at least I have that impression when I look at the texts and listen to people).
On the other hand: having all four languages in one wiki creates a bigger community and they will have less admin hassles ... sigh ... that is one of those situations ...

Localization without subcommittee approval

Discussion clarified that the subcommittee had no control over MediaWiki localization.

Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
11 September 2007 19:47

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Sabine Cretella
11 September 2007 23:22

Well: Mediawiki is open source and as such you will not be able to prevent people from localising it. If someone wants to add a different version of the UI he can always do that and if people use it and see that there are issues they simply correct things.
Why should we handle which languages one can create the UI in and in which not? Mediawiki has nothing to do with Wikipedia - these are two different projects - you can have any localization for Mediawiki, but you need a localization of Mediawiki for a new language of Wikipedia.
We are not here to handle Mediawiki localizations but we are here to handle new Wikimedia projects. At least this is how I understand the lancom scope.
Localisations will not be dropped, at least hardly any Open Source project does this, simply because messages that are not localised will appear in English and therefore sooner or later will localise them. It is a wiki, right? Why should we want to get more hassles then we already have?
Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
12 September 2007 07:30

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Sabine Cretella
12 September 2007 07:41

Ok, but this is something that is not up to us to decide/support or not support - this is for Mediawiki to decide.
WMF separated Mediawiki from the WMF projects so that there is no interference, therefore we should not mix things up in the langcom now. That is: I don't see the langcom that decides about Wikimedia projects as the right place to decide about localizations for Mediawiki. This must be handled a part and should go through who cares about Mediawiki only. And of course all of us, that is who is interested, could be in there, but it needs to be kept apart.
Of course IANA language subtags would be nice, but again: this is something to be deferred to the Mediawiki localization team/group.

Wikipedia Kinaray-a

No action was taken on the request for a Kinaray-a Wikipedia.

Sabine Cretella
12 September 2007 07:06

Forwarding the message from the talk page of langcom
*****

Kinaray-a (krj) Wikipedia

To whom it may concern. I think that the interface message translations for the Kinaray-a (krj) Wikipedia would be sufficient at this point. Most of the terms are technical and keeping it in English would be more practical. I reviewed the translated interface messages and would there be any faulty entries, I think it would be easy to edit... I think the project is ready for the next step... We are hoping for the approval of the Kinaray-a Wikipedia, for surely, it will be very useful among the Kinaray-a Wiki users, especially in promoting the use of our endangered (fastly disappearing/merging with other languages) language. Thanks a lot.
-RonaldPanaligan
*****

I will do some archivation on that page ... there are too many messages.
Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
12 September 2007 09:12

<this user has not agreed to public archival.>

Wikiquote Limburgish

The request for a Limburgish Wikiquote was conditionally approved.

Sabine Cretella
12 September 2007 07:10

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikiquote_Limburgish
I would say this one can be approved ...
Shanel Kalicharan
12 September 2007 16:52

I shall take a look at it sometime soon. :)

Wikipedia Latgalian

Sabine Cretella
12 September 2007 07:16

Posting the discussion from langcom page for your info:
***
Latgalian
What's going with Latgalian?--Nxx <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Nxx> 10:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is no ISO 639-3 code for it - this means there needs to be a request for it - in the meantime of course you may localize the UI and go ahead working on incubator. The problem is: we cannot make exceptions - once we did we would get into fights and hassles. Therefore I kindly ask for your understanding. It seems you are serious about your project, so why don't you apply for an ISO 639-3 code? Thanks! --Sabine <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:SabineCretella> 07:14, 12
September 2007 (UTC)
Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
12 September 2007 09:20

<this user has not agreed to public archival.>

Pathoschild rejoins

Pathoschild requests reinduction into the subcommittee to clear the backlogs (see resignation), and is approved.

Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild)
24 September 2007 19:45

Hello,
I ask to rejoin the language subcommittee to help deal with the backlog that has steadily accumulated over the last several months. I resigned with several weeks' notice in late April after the subcommittee was set into motion and the first backlog was cleared < http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special_projects_subcommittees/Languages/Archives/2007-04#Pathoschild.27s_resignation >.
Some outstanding issues to be resolved:
- many requests are ready for decisions, delays over which are reigniting impatience in the respective communities;
- communities like the Sakha Wikipedia were not notified of recent subcommittee decisions, so that it seemed that justified delays were caused by subcommittee inactivity;
- several messages and questions addressed to the subcommittee have not been addressed, or addressed (incorrectly) by users not in the subcommittee.
- a tweak to the policy proposed long ago has not been implemented.
If I rejoin, I will begin resolving such issues immediately.
Shanel Kalicharan
24 September 2007 20:05

{{support}}. :)
Sabine Cretella
25 September 2007 05:23

support as well - if there is no opposition by tomorrow this time I would simply insert you again if that's ok (and I am sure there will be no opposition)
Arria Belli (Maria Fanucchi)
25 September 2007 11:08

I support this move, too. I must admit I've been less active than I hoped I would be. Welcome back, Jesse. ^^
Bèrto 'd Sèra
25 September 2007 15:38

Hi! You were, are and always will be welcome.
I have *very* little time these days, but I’ll have the time to read and vote here. I’ll try to have the time to dig out info on the ex-USSR languages, as always. We also have to define what to do with the improper use of the SC code, and I have a number of signals in my private mail about something going wrong with LLJ (it doesn’t appear to be written in LLJ at all), anyway, this is not urgent.
Hopefully, I’ll be more active starting from the next month, but having a pregnant wife & a job makes life quite complicated :-)
Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild)
27 September 2007 22:00

Hello,
Thank you; I've re-added myself to the members list.
Jon Harald Søby
29 September 2007 07:53

It's good to have you back, you're a most prolific contributor to have on the team.
As for myself, the reason I have not been active lately is that I'm in the Air Force now, on military service, and will be until next summer some time. I get very little time online here (available computers are hard to find), so it's hard to stay active. But I'll be back and better later.
I can read mail on my mobile phone, so I am able to contribute on the mailing list, but am not able to watch Meta, Incubator and BetaWiki with it, so it's hard to comment on things and take initiatives, unfortunately.

Archival permissions

Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild)
27 September 2007 22:12

Hello,
As the older members may recall, I maintained public archives at <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special_projects_subcommittees/Languages/Archives> until I resigned in late April 2007. These collect discussions starting before we had a mailing list, and now supplement the private mailing list for purposes of transparency.
This is entirely opt-in. I'd like the following new members to contact me publicly or privately to confirm whether or not you approve of your messages being archived. Individual messages or discussions can be censored by request (simply "Do not archive this message" in the text suffices).
- Aksi great
- Arria Belli
- Shanel
- Tangotango
Also, if any of the older members have changed their minds, please contact me.
- Approved: Ascander, Bèrto 'd Sèra, Jon Harald Søby, Nikerabbit, Pathoschild, Sabine Cretella, Timichal.
- Refused: GerardM, censor message; —, censor name & message (—'s name will also be censored in this message).
Akash (Aksi great)
28 September 2007 12:47

Hi. I don't mind my messages being archived publicly.
Arria Belli (Maria Fanucchi)
28 September 2007 12:49

I forgot to answer to this message last night. I don't mind my messages being archived, go ahead.