Language committee/Archives/2006-11

Language committee (Archives for November 2006)

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For a summary of discussions, see the archives index.

Policy, the Montenegrin Wikipedia, Pathoschild, the creation of a subcommittee wiki

This is an IRC discussion about policy, the Montenegrin Wikipedia, and the creation of a subcommittee wiki on 29 November 2006. Pathoschild was introduced to the subcommittee. No consensus was reached on any points.

time	User	comment
20:11	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:12	lahcimit	o/
20:12	lahcimit	GerardM: I hope at least you got my mail about two days ago :)
20:17	Jhs	hi lahcimit
20:17	Jhs	and GerardM
20:20	lahcimit	and Jhs
20:20	lahcimit	Jhs, I'm surprised you're actually here ^.^
20:20	Jhs	lahcimit: why?
20:20	Jhs	have i been away that often?
20:21	lahcimit	usually you're like "omg, you had a meeting, I completely forgot"
20:21	lahcimit	:P
20:21	Jhs	:p
20:21	Jhs	i got the mail this time ;)
20:21	Jhs	well, i got it the other times as well
20:21	lahcimit	chatzilla sucks when I have too many panels open
20:21	Jhs	but now i read it _before_ the meeting took place
20:22	lahcimit	= away until 21:00 utc
20:22	Jhs	(but i might not be here when the meeting is supposed to happen; it is a bit late)
20:24	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:25	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:26	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:26	Jhs	there are already four balkan-language project... that's three too many IMO
20:27	Jhs	we don't need a fifth
20:29	timichal (n=youlose@wikimedia/timichal) has joined #spc-lang-com
20:30	timichal	gerard, so you didn't get my mail?
20:30	timichal	i explained the situation about the proposal in it
20:34	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:34	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:34	timichal	two days ago, I think
20:35	timichal	i sent it from timichal to timichal dot net to idon'tremember
20:35	timichal	damn, *at timichal
20:35	timichal	Jhs, can you forward it or something?
20:36	Jhs	yeah
20:36	Jhs	btw, brion is online no
20:36	Jhs	w
20:36	Jhs	go bug him
20:36	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:36	timichal	no
20:36	timichal	gerard, yes
20:36	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:36	Jhs	{{done}}
20:36	timichal	jon, you go bug him, he hates me already
20:37	Jhs	timichal: what should i bug him about?
20:37	Jhs	creating a langcomwiki?
20:37	timichal	yes.
20:37	timichal	yesterday i poked him and he was like stfu
20:39	timichal	jhs: have you ever met him in person?
20:39	Jhs	nope
20:39	Jhs	but if i get a scholarship for Wikimania (not likely) i will
20:39	timichal	why not likely? you are probably important to wmf, as a steward
20:40	Jhs	well, but i don't know any of the chinese that are in the team setting up the scholarships. ;)
20:40	timichal	who else should get it? :)
20:40	timichal	hehe
20:40	Jhs	i could bribe someone, but that would be a bit pointless
20:40	timichal	poked brion?
20:40	timichal	:p
20:41	Jhs	timichal: yeah, said he, "make sure it's in bugzilla with shell marking and i'll get to it in a while"
20:41	timichal	really?
20:41	Jhs	yeah
20:41	timichal	i'll kill him
20:41	timichal	no
20:41	Jhs	i think he favours me to you
20:41	timichal	i'll send anthere to kill him
20:41	Jhs	:o
20:41	Jhs	even worse
20:42	timichal	have you told him we have a deadline and I'm fucking requesting it since fucking Sunday?
20:43	Jhs	no
20:43	Jhs	but if i said it that way, i think he would stfu me too
20:43	timichal	not that way
20:43	timichal	make it look polite :)
20:44	timichal	at least ask him how long is a while supposed to be, or something
20:44	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:44	timichal	good
20:44	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:45	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:45	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:45	timichal	oh, and what are we going to do with the montenegrin thing anyway?
20:46	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:46	timichal	as we don't have any decision power
20:46	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:46	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:46	timichal	i agree, however, can we deny it?
20:46	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:46	timichal	ok
20:47	timichal	advise to whom?
20:47	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:48	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:48	timichal	actually, the board is probably discussing the matter right now
20:48	timichal	iirc, it's on anthere's meeting agenda
20:49	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:49	timichal	and I have promised her to provide a new language policy
20:49	Jhs	http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8080
20:49	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:49	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:49	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:49	timichal	yes
20:50	timichal	but things have changed
20:50	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:52	timichal	first, pathoschild's policy reform. anthere (and me) sees it as having good points. i think the one we've made is not bad, but is over-bureaucratised
20:52	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:52	timichal	and iirc, it wasn't in any consistent form
20:52	timichal	about what?
20:53	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:53	timichal	oh
20:53	timichal	i'm on mobile phone now, could you throw in a link, Jhs? :p
20:53	Jhs	g2g to help my step-father, brb
20:54	timichal	mhm
20:54	timichal	it's something like m:new language policy
20:54	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:55	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:55	timichal	it has some things better than in ours; most importantly - it actually works
20:55	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:55	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:55	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:56	timichal	the meta admins thing is stupid, yes
20:56	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:56	timichal	and there could definitely be some improvements in the requirements
20:56	timichal	yes, like codes
20:57	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:57	timichal	but generally, i like the process itself; it's simple, clear, and involves the community
20:57	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:58	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:58	timichal	ah, you mean, they don't have to start with wikipedia?
20:58	timichal	good point
20:59	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
20:59	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:00	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:00	timichal	well, the community would be happy. remember we don't do it only for standards, but also for people.
21:00	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:01	timichal	yes
21:01	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:01	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:02	timichal	for some small languages, editors=readers
21:02	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:02	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:03	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:04	timichal	well, and because of your points, we should develop a policy that makes all this guaranteed. and what's good about it, it'll start working before new year
21:04	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:04	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:04	timichal	right
21:05	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:06	timichal	sigh... community involvement, for example. And I'm not talking about codes, that's your domain; I'm worried about the general process
21:06	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:06	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:07	timichal	no voting
21:07	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:07	timichal	read pathoschild's proposal
21:07	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:08	timichal	we are to decide. in my opinion, the decision should have two parts
21:08	timichal	first, general compatibility with standards - iso codes and the like
21:09	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:09	timichal	second, feasibility for Wikimedia to have the project on their servers
21:09	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:09	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:10	timichal	I'm not suggesting to completely adopt that proposal
21:10	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:10	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:10	timichal	i disagree
21:10	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:11	timichal	the fact the language is recognized by cue-your-favourite-standards-organization doesn't automatically mean Wikimedia wants it
21:12	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:12	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:13	timichal	ah, sorry, my english is probably broken :) of course the ability is there. i meant necessity, and that's what we should decide on
21:13	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:14	timichal	the langcom
21:14	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:15	timichal	correct
21:15	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:15	timichal	that's what i tried to say
21:15	timichal	the community aka the proposing people is to give us arguments for starting the wiki.
21:16	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:16	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:16	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:16	timichal	some might oppose, and we can take their arguments into account or we can ignore them
21:17	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:17	timichal	yes, that's what i mean
21:17	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:17	timichal	decide and give a reason why
21:18	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:18	timichal	yep
21:18	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:20	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
21:23	timichal	but they'll be satisfied they are able to participate :) completely different than "omg they decided totally in secret, they're cabal, let's whine to jimbo"
21:25	Jhs	back
21:25	timichal	jhs: see me on -tech! i win!
21:26	timichal	i lied a little little bit, but...
21:26	timichal	oh, you aren't on that channel
21:27	timichal	but looks like brion will do it this afternoon! *winwin*
21:28	Jhs	;)
21:29	timichal	jhs: have you proposed a name or something in bugzilla?
21:30	timichal	cause i did a while ago
21:32	SabineCretella	hi
21:32	timichal	hi sabine
21:34	timichal	showertime for me
21:34	Jhs	timichal: yeah, i did
15:36	fuu (n=Pathosch@wikimedia/Pathoschild) has joined #spc-lang-com
15:37	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:37	fuu	Hey. Yep, I'm <...>
15:37	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:37	SabineCretella	Hi :-)
15:37	fuu	Hello. :)
15:37	fuu	I've read it, if it's the proposal that is on Meta.
15:39	fuu	reads the email.
15:39	SabineCretella	no it is about the creation of new wikipedias ... or did I put it on meta and don't remember ... that would be tragic ;-)
15:39	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:40	SabineCretella	ok - probably he saw our proposal to spc online
15:41	SabineCretella	or my thoughts I wrote down on meta before the language subcom was created
15:41	timichal has left irc.freenode.net ("used jmIrc")
15:41	lahcimit is now known as timichal
15:42	fuu	The proposal seems compatible with the new policy, which is essentially a standardised step-based process for quickly going through proposal, discussion, community building and translation, and decision.
15:42	fuu	reads the discussion.
15:43	timichal	oh no, it's the fuu
15:43	fuu	:)
15:43	timichal	Jhs: not langcom
15:43	timichal	langscom
15:43	Jhs	timichal: ??
15:43	Jhs	what's the difference?
15:43	timichal	the s
15:43	Jhs	except that langscom is harder to pronounce
15:43	Jhs	and less intuitive
15:44	timichal	we won't pronounce it :P
15:44	timichal	see, we are not a commitee
15:44	Jhs	i will when skyping with GerardM ;)
15:44	timichal	spcom might whine
15:44	timichal	omg, I need to get skype
15:44	Jhs	timichal: yes, you do
15:44	timichal	but my english horribly fails
15:44	Jhs	so does mine :)
15:44	timichal	I'll at least try ;)
15:44	timichal	but anyway
15:44	Jhs	if spcom whines, we'll kick their asses. like in the mexican parliament
15:45	fuu is now known as Pathoschild
15:45	timichal	langscom - languages commitee for us, language subcommitee for spcom
15:45	SabineCretella	timichal: indeed you need skype ;-)
15:45	timichal	Jhs: won't work
15:45	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:45	Jhs	i read langscom as "languages committeee"
15:45	timichal	Jhs: good
15:45	SabineCretella	Jhs lol ... you are naughty :-P worse than me
15:45	timichal	and they'll read as language subcommiteeeeeeeee :)
15:46	timichal	and I fail to spell committee
15:46	timichal	so let's make it langscom, Jon
15:46	timichal	puh-leaaaase
15:47	timichal	oh, I can't really get skype
15:47	timichal	wait, I can!
15:47	SabineCretella	why thimichal?
15:48	timichal	it's there for linux even :D
15:48	SabineCretella	linux? I use it also with linux
15:48	timichal	I'll add you guys tomorrow then
15:49	SabineCretella	hmmm ... berto is not around right? and also ascander is missing
15:50	SabineCretella	and I did not copy karen in my mail :-(
15:50	timichal	Jhs: oh, and I'm really shy, too
15:50	timichal	SabineCretella: :-/
15:50	timichal	Jhs: WHERE ARE YOU? OMG
15:50	Jhs	hehe
15:50	Jhs	I'M HERE OMG
15:50	timichal	[21:46:33] <timichal> so let's make it langscom, Jon
15:50	timichal	[21:46:36] <timichal> puh-leaaaase
15:50	SabineCretella	great :-)
15:50	Jhs	i don't ping on Jon
15:51	timichal	but you're Jon
15:51	timichal	I like calling you Jon, since I can't really pronounce Jhs
15:51	Jhs	Jon is part of "Diskusjon", which is the name of the talk namespaces on no.wikipedia
15:51	Jhs	so i would be pinged every second second
15:51	timichal	no
15:51	Jhs	yes
15:51	timichal	enable "whole words only"
15:51	Jhs	yeah, but then i won't ping on Nauru or Steward
15:51	Jhs	or Fantomet
15:52	timichal	bah
15:52	Jhs	in norwegian we don't split words. so Phantom comic = Fantomettegneserie (ok, bad example, but still)
15:52	SabineCretella	well ... shouldn't we talk about Montenegrin?
15:53	timichal	Jhs: that's nice, but my question is still unanswered
15:53	timichal	SabineCretella: Yes.
15:53	timichal	SabineCretella: I'd deny it, if it depended on me
15:53	SabineCretella	another funny situation ....
15:53	SabineCretella	well: they should merge into Serbian
15:53	Jhs	timichal: yes, intentionally
15:53	Jhs	doesn't like langscom
15:53	Jhs	it sounds like lang-scum
15:53	timichal	so what
15:54	timichal	see, let's get a neutral person
15:54	Jhs	so what?
15:54	timichal	Pathoschild!
15:54	Jhs	are we scum?
15:54	Jhs	no
15:54	SabineCretella	otherwise we get thousands of variations of languages and dialects .... too many wikipedias to get good going projects
15:54	timichal	SabineCretella: I agree
15:54	Pathoschild	timichal: Yes?
15:54	Jhs	too
15:54	timichal	Pathoschild: langcom.wikimedia.org or langscom.wikimedia.org?
15:54	Pathoschild	timichal: I haven't participated in any discussion about this. What's wrong with meta.wikimedia.org? :)
15:55	Jhs	it's very non-private
15:55	timichal	Pathoschild: ignore that at the moment :P
15:55	timichal	just tell me which name is better
15:55	Jhs	like, if we want to bash siberian wikipedia, it is a lot harder on meta. we would have to use rot13 or something
15:56	timichal	Jhs: exactly! cabal stuff has to be done s1kr17
15:56	Pathoschild	I'd go for langcom. I think "lang scum" when I read the second. :)
15:56	timichal	okay, okay
15:56	timichal	I lose
15:56	Jhs	eat your words, timichal :p
15:56	timichal	but you two will be blamed if Anthere shouts at me ^.^
15:56	Jhs	fine by me
15:56	timichal	so, why not meta
15:57	timichal	Ant asked me the same question :P
15:58	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:58	Pathoschild	"secret".
15:58	timichal	GerardM: secret
15:59	timichal	oh, I'm supposed to continue, right
15:59	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:59	timichal	well, I looked a bit into the future
15:59	SabineCretella	langcom ... I lik that one
15:59	timichal	SabineCretella: bah
15:59	SabineCretella	because it is short
16:00	timichal	we could write that proposal on meta easily
16:00	SabineCretella	the proposal on meta is ok
16:00	Pathoschild	GerardM: Regarding the "closing admin" part of the policy, that was chosen because it's more or less fair; any admin can contest any decision, so a Montenegrin admin can't just decide that we *obviously* need a Montenegrin Wikipedia. It was added so that the process will work until something better replaces that. If the languages subcommittee wants to make all decisions, all the better.
16:00	SabineCretella	but imagine to discuss about issues on meta
16:00	timichal	but we might have to shout at each other later, during decisions
16:00	timichal	and I wouldn't like to do it on meta
16:00	timichal	what SabineCretella says :)
16:00	SabineCretella	that would mean we need to discuss with all that neat people day and night and would not even have time to sleep
16:00	SabineCretella	not that I do not want to discuss
16:01	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:01	SabineCretella	but: only up to a certain amount of time
16:01	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:01	timichal	SabineCretella: you know we have a defacto deadline, right?
16:01	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:01	SabineCretella	for Montenegrin? or for the proposal?
16:01	timichal	for the proposal
16:01	SabineCretella	well: tak the proposal and copy and paste it online
16:01	Pathoschild	GerardM: I asked timichal to bring this up a few days ago. *Does* the language subcommittee want to make all decisions? Judging from the discussion so far, that seems to be the case.
16:02	SabineCretella	th only thing to be amended according to ascander is the fact that
16:02	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:02	SabineCretella	it needs to be underlined that the edits need to be done on meta
16:02	timichal	Sabine, well, I'd like to work on it
16:02	Pathoschild	Note that I wrote the policy knowing next to nothing about the language subcommittee, since the Meta page says almost nothing about it. :)
16:02	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:02	timichal	look at my previous discussion with gerard
16:03	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:03	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:04	Pathoschild	GerardM: Because the process was not working, and the language subcommittee didn't seem to be doing anything. I proposed it for a week or two on the main page, just in case anyone thought I should wait. :)
16:04	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:04	SabineCretella	well, I believe, meta is simply too big to have a good overview
16:04	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:04	timichal	Sabine: Pathoschild has made some good points in his policy, and I'd like to merge his and our ideas
16:04	SabineCretella	and we were not seen much around since we did not have official stuff
16:04	Pathoschild	GerardM: Yes, but none of that is written anywhere.
16:05	SabineCretella	timichal: yes - that makes sense
16:05	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:05	timichal	the problem is, as always, in communication :)
16:05	SabineCretella	the problem is meta ... it does not allow to effectively see things if you don't know them in advance
16:05	Pathoschild	GerardM: Perhaps, but if you don't communicate you can hardly complain that others edited the wiki without considering the points you don't communicate. :)
16:06	SabineCretella	exactly ... communication ...
16:06	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:06	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:06	timichal	so, when are we here, someone go answer http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Special_projects_subcommittees/Languages :)
16:06	Pathoschild	GerardM: The one you emailed? Yes, and it's not incompatible with the policy I proposed. Mine is mostly a proposal; Sabine's is mostly a set of requirements.
16:06	timichal	Pathoschild, exactly
16:07	Pathoschild	er, Mine is mostly a process*.
16:07	timichal	I'd like to somehow merge both
16:07	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:07	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:07	Pathoschild	GerardM: I didn't invent that; it was in the original guidelines.
16:07	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:08	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:08	timichal	well, we'll change that then
16:08	timichal	that
16:08	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:08	Pathoschild	GerardM: That's fine by me; I'd prefer we use real codes, but I assumed that we were allowing invented codes based on some previous discussion.
16:08	timichal	*that's why I want to have a wiki soon
16:08	Pathoschild	GerardM: Yep; that's how I knew about your objection to my proposal. :)
16:09	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:09	timichal	then we can collaborate on it.
16:09	timichal	also, I think we should let Pathoschild in :)
16:09	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:10	SabineCretella	well ... the proposal has some points ... I need to re-read it not having to chat in the meantime ... but: like it is now I am not happy with it ... integrating things for good points makes always sense
16:10	timichal	GerardM: opening your xls
16:10	Pathoschild	Yep.
16:10	timichal	we should have it finished around dec 12
16:11	SabineCretella	well on dec. 12 I am already on my way to Austria ... so possibly by dec. 11
16:11	SabineCretella	to a nice conference about standards in the language industry (including iso codes ;-)
16:12	Jhs	g2g now
16:12	Jhs	school night
16:12	Jhs	(oh, and we really should have a wiki or some place to to our thing other than irc; i'm unable to do anything productive here, as you may have noticed :) )
16:12	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:12	Pathoschild	GerardM: Yep, and I already answered; I see no problem with the proposed requirements.
16:12	SabineCretella	good night Jhs
16:12	Pathoschild	Good night.
16:12	SabineCretella	so as for montenegrin, Jhs, what do we count?
16:12	Pathoschild	My proposal is mostly a streamlined process, though. It'd be faster if we change it, rather than create a whole new policy with points from it.
16:12	Jhs	SabineCretella: i say no
16:12	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:12	SabineCretella	ok, thank you!
16:13	Jhs	np :)
16:13	SabineCretella	good night Jhs
16:13	Jhs	g'night
16:13	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:13	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:13	Jhs has left irc.freenode.net ("zzzzzzzzzzzzz")
16:13	timichal	Pathoschild: yes.
16:14	SabineCretella	also with another person
16:14	Pathoschild	GerardM: You both have objections to it. I don't see why we can't just change it to meet your objections. For example, removing the note about inventing codes would answer your objection with codes.
16:14	Pathoschild	Or do you object to the process itself?
16:14	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:14	Pathoschild	GerardM: So add that to the policy.
16:14	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:15	SabineCretella	the same requirements cannot be used for different projects
16:15	timichal	well, I'm against creating a completely new policy
16:15	SabineCretella	community building is different from wikipedia to wiktionary to wikibook etc.
16:15	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:15	timichal	I say, add our requirements to Pathoschild's process, and tweak it
16:15	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:16	timichal	yes, it's there, I assume
16:16	SabineCretella	there are languages for which there is no iso 639-3 code (for example) but they are indeed languages
16:16	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:16	SabineCretella	so: the code is one criteria ... but it should not be the only one ... people can request a code for their language
16:16	timichal	oh, let the requirements be not too harsh
16:16	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:17	SabineCretella	well: that is why I said: there are languages that are known as such, but don't have a cod
16:17	Pathoschild	GerardM: Yes, the policy already suggests that. Once we've looked at it and decided that it's not a project that'll never be accepted, we conditionally approve it and let them build a test project on the incubator.
16:17	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:17	SabineCretella	see Griko Salentino for example
16:17	Pathoschild	Although they can build a test project first, of course.
16:17	SabineCretella	people could work on the incubator anyway
16:17	timichal	I noticed you bunch are talking about codes all the time :P
16:17	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:17	SabineCretella	why should they need approval?
16:17	Pathoschild	GerardM: Yes; that's why it's conditional.
16:18	timichal	IMO creating a project on incubator doesn't need approval
16:18	Pathoschild	SabineCretella: They can do it without approval, if they want. It's just a go-ahead that tells them they won't be wasting their time on something that we won't accept.
16:18	timichal	s/project/new lang of a project
16:18	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:18	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:18	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:18	SabineCretella	well: that can always happen Pathoschild ... incubator does not mean they can have their project
16:19	SabineCretella	but that is their place where they can really work
16:19	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:19	Pathoschild	GerardM: I thought there were several non-Wikipedia projects on Incubator?
16:19	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:19	timichal	Pathoschild: correct
16:19	timichal	incubator is not for wikipedia only
16:20	Pathoschild	I don't see what your point is; what do you mean by "and incubator is for WIKIPEDIA" ?
16:20	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:20	Pathoschild	To demonstrate that there's a community ready to work on that language project.
16:20	timichal	to prove they can do a book
16:21	Pathoschild	There are too many wikis that exist now that have no communities.
16:21	timichal	Pathoschild can say the same as I, except three times more effectively :)
16:21	Pathoschild	:)
16:21	SabineCretella	There should be enough speakers to form a viable community and audience. Whether a particular language qualifies depends on discussion.
16:21	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:21	SabineCretella	this is a sentence I don't like
16:21	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:21	timichal	we should have some space for discussion.
16:21	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:22	timichal	to make the people feel involved
16:22	Pathoschild	SabineCretella: If there's only one person interested, they're probably not going to get far. We should encourage them to get a few others involved.
16:22	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:22	Pathoschild	GerardM: We want their books, but we don't want a wiki with no community.
16:22	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:22	SabineCretella	well yes, but: there are different communites - there are wikipedias where 10 people promised to edit and now we are only in three ... so: that number is really veery orientative
16:22	Pathoschild	GerardM: Sure we can; that's what the incubator and multilingual Wikisource are for.
16:23	Pathoschild	SabineCretella: That's why there is a test project; the users who really are interested can start the project on incubator, then move it over when the wiki is created.
16:23	SabineCretella	They have to show that they work over a certain period ... otherwise, well, you will have the situation like we have it with many small wikipedias
16:23	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:24	SabineCretella	well, yes, that is why we set up a certain amount of edits within a certain time periond by a certain number of people
16:24	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:24	timichal	a little off-topic remark: ru-sib, while opposed by many as not being a real language, is an extremely successful and fast-growing wiki
16:24	Pathoschild	GerardM: Weren't the UNDP texts English?
16:24	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:24	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:25	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:25	Pathoschild	GerardM: You suggest we should create a wiki in every real language right now, and hope someone moves in one day and makes it successful?
16:25	SabineCretella	timichal do you have a clue on how different ru-sib is from ru?
16:25	SabineCretella	I mean: really different or just partly different?
16:25	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:26	timichal	SabineCretella: partly different, I think. but I can read ru-sib more easily than ru
16:26	SabineCretella	ok - that is clearly a difference
16:26	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:26	SabineCretella	Hmmmm for wikibooks
16:26	timichal	well, I was thinking the commitee itself could vote on these cases
16:27	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:27	SabineCretella	we could have one project with several languages on it as long as there are only two or three books in that language
16:27	SabineCretella	when it grows then you can always pass it over - initially wikibooks was one wiki with several languages ...
16:27	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:27	SabineCretella	well: we need it anyway ...
16:28	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:28	timichal	I disagree with a wikibooks project having five imported books, but no community
16:28	Pathoschild	GerardM: A wiki is useful only as long as someone edits it. Even if someone donates a book, it's pointless to create a wiki for it if nobody will edit it. We should put it on the incubator, encourage a community to grow, and create the wiki when it's active.
16:28	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:29	SabineCretella	the thing is: these books will be edited over time ... not immediately (as much as I understand)
16:29	SabineCretella	so one wiki to collect these books should be ok (because they are real finished books ... not books that are on the way to be written)
16:29	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:29	Pathoschild	GerardM: I have no problem with donations, and I'm certainly not suggesting we reject them. I'm saying that wikis that have no community should all be one wiki where they can await a real community.
16:30	SabineCretella	I mean: one wiki for more languages ... don't see a problem
16:30	timichal	if they said "we'll donate five books in <obscure language> if you make a wikibooks project in <obscure language>", I'd disagree
16:30	timichal	and refuse
16:30	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:30	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:31	Pathoschild	A donation is not a community.
16:31	SabineCretella	sorry ... this all is hypothetic ... the books need a wiki ... we have wikis
16:31	SabineCretella	but: we need to make sure it can "live"
16:31	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:31	SabineCretella	why search for difficult solutions ....
16:32	timichal	SabineCretella: yes
16:32	SabineCretella	if there are simple ones?
16:32	Pathoschild	GerardM: Put it on incubator.
16:32	SabineCretella	well: put the Akan book on a "mixd languages" wikibook project
16:32	Pathoschild	That's what the incubator is for; incubating future wikis.
16:32	SabineCretella	I would not put in on incubator
16:32	timichal	I kinda agree with sabine
16:32	SabineCretella	because it is finished and w will have more books
16:33	timichal	we should make a wikibooks project for obscure languages
16:33	Pathoschild	SabineCretella: Creating a multilingual Wikibooks project is fine. Wikisource already has a multilingual project where it keeps texts until a wiki is created for them.
16:33	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:33	timichal	yes, something like that
16:33	timichal	GerardM: sorry, I'm too lazy to express what I have on mind
16:33	SabineCretella	exactly ... somthing like that wikisource thingie
16:33	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:34	SabineCretella	where is the multilingual wikisource
16:35	Pathoschild	GerardM: So we'd put the Akan wikibook at [http://wikibooks.org/code/title], invite a community to expand the Akan project, and move it to code.wikibooks.org when there's a viable community.
16:35	SabineCretella	don't find it ...
16:35	Pathoschild	SabineCretella: http://wikisource.org/wiki/Main_page
16:35	SabineCretella	just on wikisource.org?
16:35	SabineCretella	ah ok - so I was right there
16:36	SabineCretella	but: the main page does not indicate it ... I mean that other languages are welcome to insert things there
16:36	SabineCretella	hmmm ... have to think a bit about that page
16:37	Pathoschild	Hmm... it should be. See [[[oldwikisource:Talk:Main Page#How_to_add_languages.3F|http://wikisource.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page#How_to_add_languages.3F]]], for example.
16:37	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:38	SabineCretella	you don't see it immediately ... that's what I mean
16:38	SabineCretella	will think about a proposal (time permitting)
16:38	Pathoschild	SabineCretella: I'll mention it to a multilingual admin I know.
16:38	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:38	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:38	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:38	Pathoschild	That's fine by me, either on incubator or a multilingual version of that project.
16:39	Pathoschild	...then again, I'm not part of the subcommittee.
16:39	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:39	Pathoschild	GerardM: That seems redundant with incubator, but as long as there's a standardised method...
16:40	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:40	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:41	Pathoschild	I'd prefer that be done in the same place as the development of the project itself.
16:41	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:41	Pathoschild	Perhaps in normal wiki pages until the multilingual MediaWiki is ready.
16:41	Pathoschild	GerardM: Well then, let's just pick one and do both there. :)
16:42	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:42	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:42	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:43	timichal	"let's pick one" kinda difficult
16:43	timichal	we can't throw away the incubator, as it's an official wm project now and what not
16:44	timichal	but having the betawiki functionality in incubator'd need a lot of help from the devs
16:45	Pathoschild	We'd have to split every proposal into two wikis during development, then?
16:46	timichal	well, I'd like to avoid it, but currently there's no other choice
16:46	timichal	unless Nikerabbit gets shell access...
16:46	SabineCretella	brion offered, time ago, to host betawiki on his server
16:47	SabineCretella	I suppose there are som probs to have it on normal mediawiki servers
16:47	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:47	SabineCretella	because of the code that is in there
16:47	timichal	SabineCretella: yes
16:47	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:47	timichal	exactly
16:47	Pathoschild	GerardM: That would be the best solution.
16:47	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:47	timichal	but we can't cancel the incubator
16:48	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:48	SabineCretella	otherwise: it would not be a problem to migrate the incubator on betawiki ... it would not change things since betawiki has only additional functions
16:48	timichal	so we could move incubator to leuksman the brionsrv and merge it with betawiki
16:48	SabineCretella	call it incubator
16:48	timichal	SabineCretella: betawiki is slow and ugly :P
16:48	SabineCretella	use betawiki code
16:48	timichal	and Finnish
16:48	SabineCretella	I suppose it is a server problem as wll timichal
16:49	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:49	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:51	timichal	sure
16:51	timichal	but, how?
16:52	SabineCretella	ok .. we need a naughty plan :-P
16:52	SabineCretella	who cleans the code?
16:53	timichal	Nikerabbit!
16:53	SabineCretella	(sorry, I cannot do that ... if it were a kitchen ... well ... that would be easier ;-)
16:54	Pathoschild	To clarify an earlier point, does anyone mind if I deny the Montenegrin Wikipedia under the current policy?
16:54	timichal	poking him about it
16:54	timichal	Pathoschild: I don't
16:54	SabineCretella	the problem is Nikerabbit is the one who wrote the code ...
16:54	SabineCretella	and brion is not happy with it
16:54	SabineCretella	so ... we have a not so nice situation
16:55	SabineCretella	how do we get the two together? .... brion doesn't have time to do things himself
16:55	SabineCretella	we need the one in the middle ;-)
16:55	timichal	I'll learn php really fast? :P
16:55	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:55	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:56	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:56	SabineCretella	lol ... be aware timichal ;-)
16:56	timichal	[22:55:26] <timichal> but we'd like to have the functionality of betawiki in incubator
16:56	timichal	[22:55:44] <Nikerabbit> what functionality
16:56	Pathoschild	goes off to close the Montenegrin proposal, then.
16:56	SabineCretella	or you will have loads of work :-P
16:56	timichal	right, what functionality do we need at incubator?
16:57	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:57	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
16:57	SabineCretella	as for Montenegrin: they will need to deal with Serbian .... should we talk to that wikipedia or just propose it and leave it up to them?
16:58	Pathoschild	SabineCretella: It seems to me that wikis should not be split along political lines. We should encourage them to work together, or at the very least have Montenegrin pages alongside Siberian pages.
16:59	SabineCretella	You are right Pathossschild :-)
16:59	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
17:03	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
17:03	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
17:03	timichal	yes, wait a sec
17:03	Nikerabbit (i=nike@wikipedia/Nikerabbit) has joined #spc-lang-com
17:03	timichal	so here's the master of betawiki, tell him what you need :P
17:03	SabineCretella	hi Nikerabbit :-)
17:03	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
17:04	Pathoschild	We should discuss specific points about the policy at some point. Particularly: are we scrapping the implemented policy, or changing it?
17:04	Pathoschild	Hello. :)
17:04	timichal	Pathoschild: I say changing
17:04	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
17:04	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
17:05	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
17:05	Nikerabbit	ugh.. oh hello
17:05	Pathoschild	GerardM: Meta:Language proposal policy.
17:05	timichal	I don't really know what special functionality betawiki has :)
17:05	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
17:06	SabineCretella	work ...
17:06	SabineCretella	:-P
17:06	Nikerabbit	sweat and pizza, or coffee if you prefer
17:06	SabineCretella	sending a real neapolitan pizza over the chat ....
17:06	timichal	but please don't import the betawiki colors :P
17:06	SabineCretella	going to make a good espresso ...
17:06	Nikerabbit	depends a little which functionality is on the list, most likely the enhanced SpecialAllmessages and EditPage
17:07	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
17:07	Nikerabbit	and the content.. that's a another story
17:07	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
17:08	Nikerabbit	and unfortunately a bit..hidden in the noice, may I say
17:09	timichal	well, Nikerabbit, I heard brion doesn't like the code
17:09	timichal	not on wm servers
17:09	Nikerabbit	well brion hasn't seen it at all, i think
17:10	timichal	ahh
17:10	timichal	but he's too busy anyway
17:10	timichal	get shell access ;)
17:10	Nikerabbit	maybe I should create a branch for it anyway...would done already if we were using git :)
17:11	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
17:11	Nikerabbit	yes, the distributed svn or something like that
17:11	Pathoschild	notes: Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Montenegrin closed.
17:12	timichal	okay, create a branch
17:12	Nikerabbit	anyway, that's techicalities I can get over with
17:12	timichal	and then we'll tell Anthere to shout at brion to enable it to incubator :D
17:13	Nikerabbit	having it's own branch, it would be a tad easier to run it on wmf, should that ever happen
17:13	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
17:13	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
17:14	timichal	well, I expect the policy to be approved before Jan
17:14	Nikerabbit	but still, it would be different codebase
17:14	SabineCretella	Pathoschild: that was a great comment :-)
17:14	Pathoschild	Thanks. :)
17:14	Nikerabbit	am I correct that all wikies on wmf currently run on the same code?
17:14	timichal	Nikerabbit: no
17:14	Nikerabbit	except test, perhaps
17:14	timichal	Nikerabbit: well, fundamentally yes
17:14	timichal	but some have certain extensions enabled
17:15	Nikerabbit	that's a different thingie
17:15	Nikerabbit	betawiki isn't an extension, currently
17:16	timichal	make it one ;)
17:16	GerardM	<this user has not agreed to public archival.>
17:16	SabineCretella	hmmm ... probably having it as an extension could solve th problem
17:16	timichal	till when you're in the army?
17:16	Nikerabbit	well, it would be hell of an extension...
17:17	Nikerabbit	I've modified the serialized format of langfiles...
17:17	SabineCretella	hmmm ....
17:18	timichal	ouchouch
17:18	Nikerabbit	but for the others.. I could create new SpecialPage, copy from Allmessages, and hook Editpage
17:18	timichal	is the modified format crucial?
17:18	Nikerabbit	well, it includes the messages array unmerged besides the merged one
17:19	Nikerabbit	waste of space for normal wikies
17:20	Pathoschild	wanders off to have supper.