Grants talk:Project/Rapid/PreWiki.sk/Wiki Science Competition 2021 Slovakia

Comments from I JethroBT (WMF)

Hello KuboF Hromoslav and Yvesn, and thanks for you Rapid Fund request for the Wiki Science Competition 2021 in Slovakia. Here are my comments and questions:

• Thanks for providing an excellent summary of your jury procedures and general competition process.
• The prize budget is too high given the scope of this contest, and will need to be reduced. Please adjust the prize budget to be no higher than 450 EUR in total (excluding the gifts for the jury).
• Can you provide more context around the need for 400 EUR of outreach to support Facebook likes and general Facebook ads? How does this support the goals for your proposal?
• The 200 EUR Web Tech budget is also somewhat unclear to me. Is this to address the need described here, or something else: As our current email gathering system, CiviCRM, is experiencing difficulties to work in the competition website, we need to fix it. For now we haven't succeeded. If we will not fix it in a reasonable time, we will turn ourself to a professional help.
• Can you describe more about the role of other organizers in this competition, namely Yvesn and other members of Esperanto kaj Libera Scio?

Please let me know if you need any clarifications around my questions. With thanks, I JethroBT (WMF) (talk) 09:53, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi I JethroBT (WMF)! Thanks for checking our grant request and for your questions! I have just updated the request page to reflect your requirements and the evolution of the situation. About your notes:

• Budget for prizes reduced to 450 EUR, as you have requested.
• The budget for outreach is reduced to 150 EUR. The plan is to use it for new likes for the competition's Facebook page (estimated 250 likes) and to send visitors directly to the main competition page to invite them to participate. As it is the first time this competition is being organised in Slovakia, we have only couple of contacts to be potentialy interested, and big part of them are Wikimedians already. Using paid ads we can build some social proof (FB page likes) to make it easier to decide to participate for new potentially interested people. Also, to invite targeted people from outside Wikimedia to participate (for which the channels like Wikipedia Village pump would be absolutely unusable). It basically will support the CentralNotice campaign (also to big extent targeted to non-Wikimedians).
• 200 EUR for Web Tech - It relates to the mentioned CiviCRM. I was working on it a lot but the problems still persists. While I have succeded to make a temporary fix in past, it also had broken another functionalities, so is not a solution. In order to make our CiviCRM usable both for projects and operations in the same time, we need to solve its problems but cannot do it by ourselves.
• The WUG Esperanto and Free Knowledge (ELiSo) focuses on the Wikimedia projects in Esperanto and on the topic of Esperanto in Wikimedia projects in another languages. But as a formal organisation we depend on the conditions in the country of our official seat (Slovakia), so we are contributing to florishment of Wikimedia movement also there (in less extend than our main activities) by our long-term program PreWiki.sk. As the languages of the organisation and the program are different, there is also difference in the extend of participation.

• For this specific project, Yvesn is the official second requester but does not directly contribute. Peter Porubcan helps with the organisation of the jury.

--KuboF Hromoslav (talk) 18:40, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Time conflict with similar competition

@I JethroBT (WMF): Dear I JethroBT. Just to make sure that you aware: PreWiki.sk is an initiative by ELiSO to try to fish in the waters normally administered by WMSK, the affiliate for Slovakia. PreWiki.sk even went as far as copying our fundraising campaing last year. Furthermore, we are in talks to organize the very same competition. Thanks!--Jetam2 (talk) 19:33, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

@I JethroBT (WMF): I'd like to point out that I've only been in talks with WMSK and the local coordinator of this competition in Slovakia is Martin Kuštek. If PreWiki.sk would like to help Kuštek, then I'd assume that their help would be gladly accepted, but no more than one local organizer is needed. The main organizer of WSC, Kruusamägi (talk) 20:19, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

@I JethroBT (WMF): I can concur. Within WMSK we have discussed this particular science activity since early this year. I'm the former National Science Week organizer in Slovakia so this topic is still close to my heart and professional experience. Certainly, any further outreach is welcome, in civil and professional settings. 6kustek (talk) 17:12, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

@Jetam2: The affiliation asking for this grant is quite clear from the grant itself ;-) But maybe you should mention that Esperanto and Free Knowledge is the only one currently active Wikimedia affiliation in the waters normally administered by WMSVK which respects its User Group Agreement and have Board which do not long-term violate on purpose its bylaws and Board agreements...

Jetam2, I have not copyied WMSVK's fundraising campaign last year. For a very simple reason - I didn't knew how was WMSVK going to organise it. From the past experience I could assume, that WMSVK would wait until last minute to register for the possibility to participate (that has really happened), wait long time to do some meaningful outreach (that has probably happened as well) and finally not fulfill its law requirement to declare use of the fundraised money (as probably have happened in the past). I really didn't wanted to do anything from that - so I did PreWiki.sk's fundraising campaign the usual way I was doing for years...

@I JethroBT (WMF): In WMSVK we have considered the science competition as early as in 2018 but the Board have refused it. In ELiSo we have planned it for 2020 (later we have canceled it to participate in a year when it is organised internationaly) and planned it again also for 2021 (alredy in late 2020). On the other hand, there is no mention of the science competition in the Annual plan 2021 of WMSVK...

I personally would be very glad to collaborate with / in WMSVK again (I have even asked for membership in May 2020 - still without confirmation from WMSVK's Board about its acceptance) but that would require that the functionaries would return to following the Bylaws and other agreements, would care about Bylaws and agreements and would made reasonable effort to correct their previous and current long-term intentional and non-intentional violations of its Bylaws, agreements and laws. And that is a thing that is happening too, too slowly for years... --KuboF Hromoslav (talk) 17:00, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Re campaign: Not knowing whether WMSK was going to organize a campaign or not does not give you the right to copy the visuals and use its logo. Seeing fault in others does not give you any right to do this.

Re membership: You have not responded positively to our suggestions (check emails around 1 June 2020).

Re other stuff: there are other venues for addressing this and it has been addressed several times. Having apologized several times, working on inner structures and reforming the organization is not enough. Without the ability to travel back in time, what exactly is it that can be done? After torpedoing our efforts for AffCom mediation, what is it that you can offer? We are waiting.--Jetam2 (talk) 17:15, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

@Jetam2: Ok, now it went really too far from the scope of the grant discussion. We can continue it in another, appropriate place. --KuboF Hromoslav (talk) 12:24, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I have had some time to review the discussion above, and want to confirm a few details here:

• Both WMSK and PreWiki.sk want to run activities coinciding with the Wiki Science Competition in Slovakia.
• WMSK has expressed concern with funding this proposal because it conflicts with their own activities, and because they claim that their visuals and logo were used without permission. They have suggested that KuboF Hromoslav work together with WMSK to support the competition in a more unified manner.
• KuboF Hromoslav is interested in joining as a member / working together, but will not until certain organizational issues are resolved WMSK's governance and adherence to bylaws.
• WMSK is expecting a response to some communications (from June 2020) sent to KuboF around membership to move forward.

I also have some questions to help provide more clarity here:

• @Jetam2: What specific problems, risks, or concerns do you have if the proposed activities and WMSK's Wiki Science Competition activities are run concurrently? I am asking this because we have been able to support competitions in the same country along the same theme without issue. However, if there are substantive conflicts that will affect your activities, I would like you to elaborate on them clearly.
• @KuboF Hromoslav and Jetam2: What coordination or communication, if any, have you both done together on your respective Wiki Science Competition events to surface and address any potential conflict or risks? We expect that organizations operating in the same country running the same kind of competition are closely coordinating on how those events are being run to avoid these issues of overlap.

Speaking more generally, I understand there is a broader conflict here that is unresolved. I want to make very clear that discussion pages on grant proposals are not an acceptable space to make snide remarks or editorial commentary about each other or each other's organizations. This conduct is disruptive, and violates our behavioral expectations for grant-related discussions. I've removed some comments here that violate those expectations. Jetam2, references to suicide in this context are especially problematic and unhelpful. KuboF Hromoslav, your broader grievances with WMSK regarding adherence to bylaws and governance practices and speculation about what it would or wouldn't do are not really material to this discussion here. This is not a forum for evaluating WMSK as an organization, and I will remove further commentary about WMSK that does not pertain to these proposed activities. Broader concerns about movement affiliates need to be directed to AffCom for their review, not explored in the context of a grant proposal. I JethroBT (WMF) (talk) 08:46, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

I JethroBT (WMF), thanks for a good overview and broad perspective! Also, thanks for reminder of behavioral expectations!

I myself, and I believe that Jetam2 too, would prefer to not have such coincidences. But now (from beginning of this year, going to the future) there is a situation that in Slovakia are 2 WM affiliation with program partialy or fully focused specifically on Slovakia - WUG Wikimedians of Slovakia (WMSVK) with full focus on Slovakia, and WUG Esperanto and Free Knowledge (ELiSo) with a (sub)program fully focused on Slovakia. This situation is very new for both of us and we are adapting to the new reality. I personally consider it to be a great learning opportunity for both of our organiastions. Ultimately, after resolving the long-standing issues, both our organisations could collaborate closely on commons affairs to synergy and achieve greater impact.

To respond your question: When it comes to planning such activities with possible coincidences, I use to look into Annual agendas as the single place of truth. In the usual place for WMSVK there is no Annual agenda 2021. So there was no visible coincidence with the EliSo's Annual agenda 2021. To make it clear which organisation is planning to do what in any specific year, I suggest to WSMVK to return to its past tradition of publishing Annual agendas (or their draft) on Meta.

When it comes to "solution" of this specific situation: Running several similar competitions on the same place in (around) same time may feel strange / awkward, public and the local WM community can be bit confused. But these are rather small annoyances, so I see no big deal about that. If both organisations are ok (not necessarily happy) about such situation, I consider it be mostly ok ;-) There are several ways we can adapt: 1) simply every of these competitions going its way in scheduled time, 2) reschedule one or both competitions, 3) cancel one or both competitions. In case of mutual trust we could even merge the competitions. I am going to contact the international organiser and the Slovak team to discus this. In case of no specific adaptation, ELiSo will default to the conditions described in this grant request. --KuboF Hromoslav (talk) 17:37, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

@I JethroBT (WMF): (written before the preceding reply) My apologies to you and to anyone who was made uncomfortable by the remark. It came from frustration that everywhere else seems to be a venue for airing these grievances again and again. Thank you for removing it.

• It seems like it.
• The proposal conflicts with our own activies, the visuals and logo were used without permission. The suggestion that KuboF Hromoslav work together with WMSK is not ours.
• This is not a question for me.
• I do not think we are expecting anything from KuboF Hromoslav.
• I am not sure how we could run the same competition in the same country and on the same project concurrently but perhaps it is possible. How do you envision it?
• We have not done any coordination since I only learned of his intention to organize the competition from his banner request several days ago. Given the conflict, it is not easy to talk at the moment.

My apologies again. The matter is being dealth with by AffCom.

Thanks!--Jetam2 (talk) 17:57, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

(In response to KuboF Hromoslav:)

Suggestion taken.

The learning opportunity is sounds good but now the ball is in your court to make the necessary changes to gain back trust and respect. Some suggestions can be found above.

In terms of the competition itself, please contact 6kustek.--Jetam2 (talk) 18:14, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

To correct the misinformation by Jetam2: visual and the logo for PreWiki.sk was and is used with persmission! You can see that the original WMSVK's logo is created by Jozef Kováč and available under CC BY-SA 3.0 and the PreWiki.sk's logo fully respect the need for attribution. The general visual for the PreWiki.sk's fundraising campaign is general and totaly do not owned by WMSVK. The material that PreWiki.sk do not own copyright for was attributed according to the license. And, yeah, that is the way how looks the landing pages that I create - I have created if for WMSVK some time ago and I have used the same principles and material to create the PreWiki.sk's landing page. I ask you Jetam2 to factcheck your words before putting them out! --KuboF Hromoslav (talk) 15:29, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

It is not about the licence or attribution. It is about using (nearly) the same logo. Along with the visuals of the campaign they are too similar to what WMSK does/did. Therefore, contributors can get confused about which organization they are actually supporting or not notice that PreWiki.sk belongs to a different organization that they have supported beforehand.--Jetam2 (talk) 15:46, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@I JethroBT (WMF): To prevent the time conflict with the WMSVK's version, I am shifting the time of the project. I have just updated the request page. --KuboF Hromoslav (talk) 15:21, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@KuboF Hromoslav: I have marked the proposal as not funded and have contacted you via e-mail to explain the rationale for this decision. I JethroBT (WMF) (talk) 06:43, 3 November 2021 (UTC)