Grants talk:IEG/Wikiexpedition and Wikitraining in Chernigiv oblast

Early feedback

Hi Pryhodko Mykola Vasyliovych and Victoriya Solomatova, thanks for starting this draft! This does seem like useful content to have on Commons and Wikipedia, however IEGrants aren't allowed to fund people to directly create content themselves. It sounds like you are thinking this grant would fund expenses related to you taking photos yourself, and this is currently outside of the scope of an IEG. We also tend to avoid purchasing expensive equipment for individuals to use on short-term projects, because this is costs a lot for a comparatively small number of images that 1 or 2 people will be able to generate using this equipment, and then we need to consider what happens to the laptop/cameras/etc after the project ends. I wonder if there is another way you could think about accomplishing your goals of getting this content on Wikipedia, so that it might be more sustainable - could you develop a system for organizing groups of volunteers to take part in expeditions in villages to take photos? If so, an IEG could fund you to organize volunteers to accomplish something like this. But, would they really need fancy laptops and cameras to do so? Hope to see you continue to develop your ideas. Best wishes, Siko (WMF) (talk) 20:48, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Siko for your opinion. OK. You see, I have an old laptop. It have dead battery and have 5 kilograms of weight. :-0 ;-( I choose Apple because it have Apple MacBook Air with longtime battery - 12 hours and very lightweight. Apple MacBook Pro Retina 13" (ME865UA/A) is a cheapest Apple-notebook with 13' display in Ukraine. In Ukraine Apple-products costs more on 30-40 percent than in Usa. It's official position of Apple. ;-( But only MacBook which sold in Ukraine have warranty in Ukraine. us - buy-mac and such like . And 13'note already HAVE built-in cardreader. OK. It's not principal question - it may be OTHER note with lower price. Just I need some good note with good longtime work battery and lightweight. Same with camera. My camera have 3 years old and have little trouble with opening of object-glass. ;-0 And I need some reserve camera for case discharging of battery and other occasion. May be for second camera is enough 100 $. About short-term. I think it's minimum for 3 period - 1.5 years only for hole Chernihiv oblast. I had organized 3 Wikiexpeditions in Chernihiv raion. But now that project stopped. Because our organization have a little problem in organization and then in we have a problem with bank-transaction too... ;-( I spent my own money for last Wikiexpedition... After that I decide to write to IEGrants.

About organizing of volunteers. Yes. it's good idea. I cooperate with some new wiki-user in Chernihiv. I made 4 wiki-training (workshops) in Ukraine. I had some interviews about Wiki with local journalists - newspapers, radio-stations and TV. It are presentation of Wiki Loves Monuments-2013 in Chernihiv, Wikiexpedition and other things. And I will continue in such way. Thank you again, Siko for you support! :-) Best wishes, --Nickispeaki (talk) 22:36, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Nickispeaki I think that it would be easier for others to give comment to develop your proposal if, as Siko said, you found a way to include contributions of other volunteers wherever you go and also if you gave details about the outcome of the three Wikiexpeditions you organized. The emphasis on these grants is almost always about community and sharing. For equipment purchases, it would be ideal if the equipment were owned by a local Wikipedia organization like uk:Вікімедіа Україна and then the equipment were loaned out to people for projects. Can you get the support of that organization for this project and find a way to share management of it with them? Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:46, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Bluerasberry. For volunteers and Wikimedia Ukraine. I will be cooperate with local wikipedians and Wikimedia Ukraine. Ok. The equipment will be at property of Ukrainian organization. --Nickispeaki (talk) 12:13, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi again, Nickispeaki. Please feel free to make changes to your proposal page to reflect some of these ideas, if you plan to move forward with requesting an IEG. I do think it will be important to take into account the ideas from community members, your local chapter, etc and we'd want to see that reflected in your proposal...and we'd also need to see that you're not planning to create all the content yourselves personally, in order for this to be eligible. The deadline to propose is tomorrow, so we'll need to see you update the status on your page to =PROPOSED (please let me know if you need some help with this part). Cheers, Siko (WMF) (talk) 23:54, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, if you omit "Apple" from your requirements - you get a dozen models with better screen, richer peripherals and cheaper. --Ilya (talk) 22:58, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

you don't need both laptop and tablet to upload photos. you don't need even any of them as you can upload photos when you come home. For the case of battery discharging you need extra battery, not extra camera :). Wikimedia Ukraine (WMUA) has a DSLR camera and has additional camera for wikiexpeditions approved. I'm hearing that WikiExpeditions project of WMUA has stopped for the first time from you. Regarding to problems with bank transactions - this is temporary and should be solved soon. Even as it is - it is only a small delay of funding, not denial. --Ilya (talk) 15:48, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Ok. Can I ask WMUA DSLR camera for this event? --Nickispeaki (talk) 14:45, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

DSLR camera is mostly used for events like concerts, exhibitions etc. If you will be able to bring this camera to Kyiv when anyone will need it that should be fine, if not you will be able to take the second camera (that is to be bought shortly) — NickK (talk) 22:31, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi all. Although I like the idea of wikiexpeditions in general, I don't fully support the idea of this project. It seems that basically we're suggesting WMF to finance two people's lodging and food for 6 months to allow them take pictures, i.e. it's kind of similar to a paid job. In my opinion, it doesn't fully match the volunteer nature of WMUA in general. I think Nickispeaki should find a compromise - replan it so that the grant wouldn't have to cover renting of an appartament and food. --Yury Bulka (talk) 12:51, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Photos of modern buildings

Many (probably most of) buildings in villages are built in soviet times thus copyright for most of them has no expired yet. There is no Freedom of Panorama in Ukraine but you're going to upload your photos to Wikimedia Commons. How will you deal with the issue? --Base (talk) 16:49, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

That is the question! :-0 ;-) It is very important question. What to do I must in such situation? What is your advise? --Nickispeaki (talk) 14:51, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

GPS

I am wondered why do you need tablet for GPS. Buy smartphone ($200) and it will replace notebook ($1250), cardreader ($10) and tablet ($400). Smartphone usually can read SD-cards, has GPS and can upload photos. So you have $1460 economy.--Anatoliy (talk) 18:56, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Ok. I canceled notebook and 2 cameras. Economy. :-) --Nickispeaki (talk) 14:46, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Economic rationale

(Possible COI: I am the treasurer of Wikimedia Ukraine, a chapter User:Nickispeaki is a member of)

I would wonder if it is rational to request $9540 for pictures of 300—400 villages (which gives a marginal cost of about $30 per village). Some suggestions on this topic:

1. It is too expensive to organise such expeditions just to take pictures. We have a lot of villages where pictures are available elsewhere on the Internet (Panoramio, Wikimapia, Flickr, or even local groups in social networks) but little to no information on the village itself. It would be great not only to take pictures, but to collect information about villages, especially if we are speaking of the pace of 2—3 villages per day.
2. Still, 30$ per village is too much (WMUA organises wikiexpeditions, and Nickispeaki also participated in some, but their marginal cost per village is way lower, and hardly over 5$). If we are really speaking of such level of prices, it may be more reasonable to contact a village council (usually regrouping 3—5 villages) and ask them to provide photos and information on their villages for an award of some 50$ for all 3—5 villages, and I do believe they will find volunteers for this. This means that at this cost it may be more reasonable to look for local users.
3. The cost can be reasonably reduced by removing unnecessary or too costly lines. For example, Wikimania would be better funded by a WMF scolarship (given you have not missed the application deadline). It is not reasonable to buy two cameras, especially given that Wikimedia Ukraine already ones one and is buying a second one, so that one will always be available for loan for wikiexpeditions. It is unclear why a laptop and a tablet together are needed, usually a tablet is enough to upload pictures, and battery is unnecessary if you rent an appartment there. I would also wonder what would happen to the scooter once the project is completed, isn't it cheaper to rent it instead or use a bike? The price of 250$ for a flat also looks strange: the most expensive two-bedroom flat in Nizhyn is 150$ pcm, and Nizhyn is the biggest city on the route, thus other cities should be cheaper. Thus a more accurate cost estimation may be needed

In general the idea looks interesting, but I would suggest working on encyclopedic content as well and re-estimating costs — NickK (talk) 22:04, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for providing this feedback, NickK - I expect it is useful context for everyone to have and I join you in encouraging the proposer and IEG committee to give the budget and return on investment some further thought, assuming that this project is going to be proposed during this round :) Cheers, Siko (WMF) (talk) 23:57, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Budget became less. --Nickispeaki (talk) 14:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Much better now, thanks — NickK (talk) 22:32, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Missing info in 2 sections

Hi Nickispeaki,

Your proposal seems to be missing some info in 2 key sections still:

1. Community engagement - you'll want to tell us your plan for mobilizing the community of volunteers to help with your project (with the workshops, content curation, etc?).
2. Sustainability - sustainability and scalability is an important factor considered by the committee when selecting IEG projects, so you'll want to explain what happens to this project after we stop funding it in 6 months. Does it end? Are you building a model that others can follow for other villages or countries? etc.

Cheers, Siko (WMF) (talk) 20:10, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Eligibility issue remains - direct content creation by grantee

Hi again Nickispeaki,

I appreciate the changes you've made to your proposal to lower costs. However, I'm checking proposals for eligibility today, and I do still share the concerns that Yury Bulka has noted above. From your infobox summary, solution and budget sections, etc it still appears that this grant's main focus would be having you, as grantees, take photos for upload to Commons. I don't see any updated concrete plans laid out in your proposal about how you would organize or train others to capture this content (unless I'm mistaken, it seems like you'd plan to create the images yourself during the 6 months, and then hope to inspire others to do the same in other villages later on?), so it seems that the project still mainly relies on your presence to create content. As such, it does not meet the criteria which would make this project eligible for IEG round 1 2014 review. Unless you can make significant updates to address this within a couple of days this week, we'll need to leave your proposal out of this round's review.

If you find you need more time to turn this idea into a project plan that a group of volunteers could sustain together, I would suggest giving some thought to working more closely with other members of WMUA to develop a Project & Events Grant proposal to fund a larger Wikiexpedition initiative. It seems like there is definitely some interest from Wikimedians in the Ukraine around this idea, even if some details still need refining, so I'd encourage you to keep moving your thoughts forward!

Cheers, Siko (WMF) (talk) 19:20, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi again, as I haven't seen an update from the proposers about this, I'm going to mark the status as draft rather than proposed for this round, and suggest you take some more time to further consider the idea overall, as well as the concerns/suggestions that some people have included above. I can see the usefulness of a Wikiexpedition to capture the content in question, so I congratulate you for being so bold and taking the first steps to start this idea! It has been wonderful for the international community here (myself included) to have learned some more about the importance of Wikiexpeditions for Ukraine. As the project is planned at the moment, it doesn't seem like the right fit for an IEGrant, but I hope this will not discourage you, but instead encourage you to continue to grow the idea in new directions :) Please feel free to come back to IEG in a future round or to submit a PEG proposal, depending on what you decide to do with this project, or any others you have in mind. Best wishes, Siko (WMF) (talk) 20:14, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

It closed

It closed. I don't see a reason to discuss any time. Sorry.--Nickispeaki (talk) 00:46, 17 April 2014 (UTC)